85s in BB, the book says fold, I would call

[Hielko]

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Your reasoning is wrong. When you hit a flushdraw, twopair+ or a straightdraw (gutshot or better) you can usually play the hand +ev postflop. You are getting 7:1 to call and the probability that you flop one of those hands it probably better than 7:1.

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you're not making money postflop in a 4-way pot when you flop a gutshot or oesd or crappy flush draw. gutshots especially have big reverse implied odds. the fact that you flop a hand or a draw more than 1 in 8 times does not justify a call.

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It depending on how aggressive the other players are, but when you can often see the turn for a single small bet it's obvious you are making money with a gutshot with a pot that will be +/- 10sb.

I call almost always in a 4-way pot with xxs on the BB, so a hand like 85s that also has some straight potential is an easy call in most cases I think. You are not going to make a huge amout of money with plays like these, but it's hard for me to image that it's -ev in the long run.

[stinkypete]

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Your reasoning is wrong. When you hit a flushdraw, twopair+ or a straightdraw (gutshot or better) you can usually play the hand +ev postflop. You are getting 7:1 to call and the probability that you flop one of those hands it probably better than 7:1.

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you're not making money postflop in a 4-way pot when you flop a gutshot or oesd or crappy flush draw. gutshots especially have big reverse implied odds. the fact that you flop a hand or a draw more than 1 in 8 times does not justify a call.

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It depending on how aggressive the other players are, but when you can often see the turn for a single small bet it's obvious you are making money with a gutshot with a pot that will be +/- 10sb.

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i said you're not making money postflop, which means the argument about being better than 7:1 to flop one of those draws is irrelevant.

if you were guaranteed to flop a gutshot every hand (and no flush draw), you wouldnt be getting odds to call. you only "make" money postflop because you put in bad money before the flop.

i'm not saying you shouldn't call with 85s. i certainly would (though i'm not even certain its correct). but a lot of the reasoning in this thread is wrong.

[12ressiMorP]

If you can play well/correctly postflop, then folding is BAD.

[Victor]

nearly any 2 suited here. certainly any 2 with str or high card potential.

[Nate.]

amulet --

Good to see you posting so much these days. I really appreciate the perspective you bring.

Here, though, I think we have a call. Tinkering around with PokerStove and some ranges will reveal that we are usually far better than 12% hot-and-cold in this four-way pot. We both know that hot-and-cold equity is far from the only consideration, but particularly given the postflop tendencies of so many modern opponents it seems difficult to justify that the future betting will handicap us so severely as to turn this into a fold preflop.

That said, I don't think a fold is as bad as some think it is.

--Nate

[PieInTheSky]

So the effective odds to play the hand to the river are going to be greater than 4 to 1?
Heads up with one bet on flop and turn is 2.5 to 1. If three of your opponents stay on flop and turn and put one bet in each than you have 4 to 1. Does that mean the game must be loose and passive for this to be profitable? What if the game is very tight post-flop and you can win without showdown, is it then profitable?

I think pocket pairs should look at implied odds and suited connectors (or any hand that is likely to be drawing) should be looking at the effective odds to play the hand, which obviously depends upon the skill of your opponents and their aggressive/passive tendencies.

Just my thoughts,

PITS