Comparison with baseball as an argument that poker is a game of skill?

[Skallagrim]

I am hardly saying that "just because a hand doesn't reach showdown it means the cards weren't important."

What I am saying, is that if the hand doesnt reach showdown then the random distribution of the cards did not DETERMINE it.

When mtgordon posted "n fact I would say that the skill comes from knowing when to check/bet/call which is largely influenced by the community cards (obviously in combination with your cards, and your opponent's previous actions and likely future actions)," he was placing the community cards and our cards as only ONE part of a largeR spectrum of considerations that influence a decision.

INFLUENCE DOES NOT EQUAL DETERMINE.

The legal test is: where a game has "51% or more of the result(s) DETERMINED by chance," it is a game of chance.

Anybody ever heard of intervening causes, like a human decision?

And if you believe the card DETERMINES the decision most of the time, you have no idea what is really going on.

Skallagrim

[coltrainSTL]

How about golf tournaments? Players pay an entry fee and win money based on how they finish. There is significant luck involved. The number one player in the world doesn't
win every time,or even most of the time. I'm not saying the skill/luck ratio is the same as poker. It's similar to sports betting except your betting on your own abilities. But for some reason you not allowed to bet on your own abilities if you play a team sport.

[JOHNY CA$H]

[ QUOTE ]

Here's another one, to demonstrates the basic point that there's luck in everything:

Present a scenario to a judge where the better entity only wins 60% or so of the time, and performance can vary by hundreds of percent from session to session. Ask him if that's a game of luck. He'll probably say yes. Tell him he just called baseball a game of luck, and performance pay for professional baseball players must be illegal gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Nice.

[EGO]

I happen to think that poker is alot like curling.

[Emperor]

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to think that poker is alot like curling.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about fishing tournaments!? Fishing tournaments seem to be VERY popular in states against gambling. OH, TN, NC, SC, etc..

While there may be some skill in fishing tournaments, is it really more than 50%?

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying, is that if the hand doesnt reach showdown then the random distribution of the cards did not DETERMINE it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely would this statement ever be accurate, since you are implying an absolute condition within your quote this forces it to be completely incorrect.

[Skallagrim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying, is that if the hand doesnt reach showdown then the random distribution of the cards did not DETERMINE it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely would this statement ever be accurate, since you are implying an absolute condition within your quote this forces it to be completely incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

???? Where do these people come from????

Perhaps you should use this awesome display of intelligence to review the rules of poker and the definition of the word determine. After doing that I am sure you will find some other obscure reference to mask that you do not understand the difference between influence (or suggest/predispose/guide/effect) and DETERMINE.

The only place in poker where cards DETERMINE an action is in Jacks or better draw where, of course, your cards determine whether you can open the betting or not...likewise, the only time cards can determine an outcome is when all the cards are shown.

PS, before you quote that part of the defintion of determine which includes "decide based on options' you will ask yourself how an inanimate object can make decisions.

[Wake up CALL]

So many attorneys, so little time. Ok then, tell me which States have laws that say anything at all about cards determining the outcome of anything at all. Doesn't even have to be poker. it can be Tarot cards for all I care. Then you can explain to me how this thread has any relevance to changing any State laws. Then I might ask you to tell me how and when that might happen.

[Skallagrim]

[ QUOTE ]
So many attorneys, so little time. Ok then, tell me which States have laws that say anything at all about cards determining the outcome of anything at all. Doesn't even have to be poker. it can be Tarot cards for all I care. Then you can explain to me how this thread has any relevance to changing any State laws. Then I might ask you to tell me how and when that might happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Instead of asking where you came from, maybe I should have asked where have you been.

Gambling is defined in about 35 states as betting money in any game "the outcome of which is predominantly determined by chance." The rest of the states are a mishmosh of rules or listed specific games. Dont believe me? Go here:
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/

Where does the "chance" exist in poker? (hint: there are 52 of them and they are randomly distributed during the game)

If chance does not predominantly determine the outcome of a poker game then poker is not gambling in all of those 35 or so states.

And if thats the case, there is no need to change any laws in those states to be able to legally play poker online.

If you have more questions I am sure they, like the ones above, have already been answered numerous times in this forum.

Skallagrim