FTOPS ME bubble AKo - Page 3

WarDekar · #21 05-21-2007, 01:35 PM

This is right on the border, but I push because I'm incapable of passing up a spot like this.

Obviously AA/KK are discounted with you holding one of each, he certainly is re-raising more than JJ+ here IMO too so I'm having a hard time laying this down. UTG+1 and MP are scary for sure, and this is definitely an easy push if action started later, but I still think it's a borderline push.

radiihead · #22 05-21-2007, 05:44 PM

I let it go this time because of how early they acted and I still had a healthy stack... later on MP1 told me we were chopping as he had AK as well.
Obv UTG+1 folded to the reraise... so in this specific case if I had shoved I am 90% sure that they both would have folded o well If Im ever in that spot again Im prob still folding it

Nicok7 · #23 05-21-2007, 06:18 PM

I agree. AA and KK are definitly in the range for every player still in the hand.
I'd say it's really close and up to your feel at the time. Balancing the EV now and the EV later is down to you and how you feel at the table. You say you found two soft spots, I'd tend to fold and exploit them.

Dunkman · #24 05-21-2007, 06:26 PM

I think I'd have to see this guy make a move like this before I decided to shove here. No doubt that you're crushing UTG's range, but MP1's range is solid as far as you know, and there's a lot of people left to act. If UTG+1 has been running the table over, MP1 could have made a move at any time. Why did he choose this hand, especially from this spot on the table? My guess is because he picked up something good. You may be very slightly EV against their ranges, but even then you still have to contend with 5 people left to act. I'd wait for a better spot.

WarDekar · #25 05-21-2007, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd have to see this guy make a move like this before I decided to shove here. No doubt that you're crushing UTG's range, but MP1's range is solid as far as you know, and there's a lot of people left to act. If UTG+1 has been running the table over, MP1 could have made a move at any time. Why did he choose this hand, especially from this spot on the table? My guess is because he picked up something good. You may be very slightly EV against their ranges, but even then you still have to contend with 5 people left to act. I'd wait for a better spot.

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I don't know if I like this reasoning. Sometimes it's better to 3-bet lighter earlier for this exact reason, because you're going to get a ton of respect for it and then you know no one is 4-bet shoving without a monster. The fact that OR has been opening a lot means that the RRer can do it lightly from this spot full knowing he has to lay down to someone's push, but at the same time getting a ton of respect for his raise and very likely folding around to OR, who if he's been opening weak will have a good chance at folding too.

Dunkman · #26 05-21-2007, 06:42 PM

I hear with what you're saying, but I don't think that fully makes up for the benefit of having 3 less people acting.

edit: I'll admit, the FTOPS ME is a little out of my price range (see, I'll still be polluting the new forum with my ignorance even if I can't start posts), but is 4-bet shoving with air a fairly common practice at this level?

Kala1928 · #27 05-21-2007, 06:50 PM

min4bet

radiihead · #28 05-21-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd have to see this guy make a move like this before I decided to shove here. No doubt that you're crushing UTG's range, but MP1's range is solid as far as you know, and there's a lot of people left to act. If UTG+1 has been running the table over, MP1 could have made a move at any time. Why did he choose this hand, especially from this spot on the table? My guess is because he picked up something good. You may be very slightly EV against their ranges, but even then you still have to contend with 5 people left to act. I'd wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I like this reasoning. Sometimes it's better to 3-bet lighter earlier for this exact reason, because you're going to get a ton of respect for it and then you know no one is 4-bet shoving without a monster. The fact that OR has been opening a lot means that the RRer can do it lightly from this spot full knowing he has to lay down to someone's push, but at the same time getting a ton of respect for his raise and very likely folding around to OR, who if he's been opening weak will have a good chance at folding too.

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WarDekar I agree with you but in this case I think its pretty clear that MP1 did pick up a pretty strong hand because he is committed to calling almost half the stacks behind him if they decide to shove

WarDekar · #29 05-21-2007, 07:12 PM

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WarDekar I agree with you but in this case I think its pretty clear that MP1 did pick up a pretty strong hand because he is committed to calling almost half the stacks behind him if they decide to shove

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That's absolutely true in this case, was just making a general point actually.