ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[TheLoser]

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One last thought I had for BluffThis and all the curtains et al bashers. I find it *more* telling that ZJ did go to curtains as something of an ethical guide. Curtains has never shown anything in the hundreds of posts I've read by him to be anything other than an extremely honest poker player and upstanding citizen. I would probably go to him as well if I had some ethical quandry about poker.

Now if I thought curtains was going to rat me out, even for just bringing up the idea (not that I have one - no inferences plz), forget it. Lori's point, and some others, is that when someone comes to you in confidence with a potential misdeed, it's a little different than stumbling across one from a complete stranger. It's *sort of* like the patient-client privelege that when exists you're the psychiatrist and the patient confides something in you. The reason psychiatrists can't rat out anything other than the worst offenses, is that if they did, there would be no psychiatrists. These people wouldn't even try to get help, and they and society would be the worse off for it.

I'm not saying this is completely analagous to a patient/psychiatrist situation. I'm just saying there are some elements of it. If young, impressionable poker players can't come to the elder statesman with these kinds of quandries--w/o fear of getting instantly ratted out--then they'll probably just keep it all bottled up inside where the rationalizations can really flourish. Can you see how this would be bad for poker as a whole? At lease ZJ tried to seek out some guidance, I give him credit for that. But he chose not to listen to it, and for that he deserves everything he's getting.


As an aside, I know I'm being melodramatic on this. But I really am a little nervous this will turn him over to the dark side for good, and that reaching out to curtains was one of the last attempts at taking the high road. ZJ is a smart dude, just think if he decided to become completely evil? From his POV we all probably just went from being his biggest fanboys to turning on him on a dime. Lots of motivation and fuel to rationalize just about anythingthere. Muha muah MUHAHAHHAHAHA!!!

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Not sure if any of the shaniac apologists noticed
THIS BLOG ENTRY but it appears shaniac was able to buy into this tournament thirteen (13) times. That's a lot more than six (6) when you think about it. I guess this stuff goes on in live poker too, but since there is no watchdog community as with online, people like shaniac get a walk and are allowed to buy into a tournament over and over. Disgraceful.

[CardSharpCook]

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It would be niave to think that with this ability, Zee didn't multi-account playing STTs. You think he ACTUALLY set rules about his cheating? Maybe at first, but that's a slippery slope that is pretty muddy, and I'm sure he fell downit pretty quick. I thought that Zee was playing many tables and teasing out a small edge and THAT is what made him a winning player. As it turns out he cheated to tease out a small edge. There is a big difference there. I don't think Zee pulls 30-150k if he doesn't cheat. That being said, what is he really risking? Make nothing and play straight, or cheat and pull fat cash..

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Yes, I do think he set rules. Look at his response. It is full of outrage at what has been done to him. Guilty men do not respond in this way. He believes (believed, Justin?) that what he did was a slight bending of the rules. Double sitting at a SNG or dumping in a big tourney is a Major violation. Additionally, what I have gleaned of his personality through his posts here on 2+2 and his website, the form of cheating he describes is all he is capable of doing. Cheating to a higher degree is not in his character, in my opinion.

I was simply giving a wide range as to his estimated earnings based on what I know limit players make. I have no idea how much SNG players make, but the top limit players earn in this range. You can "easily" make that kind of money without cheating in poker.

ZeeJustin is a fast-paced player. He loads up 12 tables (again, an estimate) and every time a table ends, he loads up another. When there is a new decision to be made, the table pops up, he looks at the action to him, his stack, their stack, the pot, the cards, and he acts within 2 seconds. He may not even remember the action on the previous streets. This is what he does. How do I know? Because that is what I do when I play that many tables. The idea of being able to "know what the other horse had" is silly. True, maybe he plays differently on Sunday. Maybe he only loads 6 tables and so can keep track of these things. But I don't think so. I don't think Justin is going to sacrifice his SNG earn to concentrate on the early portion of an MTT. Why? Cause I don't. When I play an MTT, I have 9 limit tables going and 1 MTT. I wouldn't be able to stand it any other way. I have to have constant decisions popping up when I play poker. I think Justin is the same way.

There are some good arguments brought up in this thread:

1) He cheated a little bit, that means he can cheat a lot.

People who think it is all right to shoplift ("walmart can afford it" "they're stealing from the community anyway" "it is just a candy bar") know that it is WRONG to steal from another person. Of course most people also know that it is WRONG to shoplift. That doesn't mean that shoplifters have no moral compass, no ethics.

2) HE HAD 6 HORSES!!!!

He plays 12 tables at a time. When you apply that logic to MTTs, it is surprising that he doesn't have more.

3) He is an arrogant little punk and greed is his master.

No. He is a human being subject to the same desires as you and I. He is also very driven. "I need to win. I can do better. I'm not making enough. I'm not good enough. I can do more. I can win." He doesn't need to cheat to satisfy these urges (which is why I'm surprised that he did). In fact, cheating doesn't satisfy half of these urges - to be the best, to succeed. He did cheat. But he didn't see it as cheating or else he couldn't do it.

4) He acknowledges that it is wrong to Grandma. He knew what he did was wrong, but made an EV decision that said, "this much EV gain is worth this much cheating."

Again, I'm surprised that though he thought this, he did it anyway. He was able to rationalize - "I'm not using these Grandmas to actively cheat. It is only the passive cheat of having multiple entries in a single tourney. People know my SNG game because I am internet-famous. It is only fair that I have anonimty when I play SNGs."

Justin cheated. However, he is not a corrupt human being. He is a cheater only becuase he did that which is cheating. He is not a born cheater who always looks for ways to cheat the system. If I sat next to him in a live casino, I wouldn't even worry about protecting my cards from his vision. He is a very good internet poker player, one of the best. He doesn't need to cheat to earn tens of thousands a month. In his mind, he never did cheat.

Of course, I could be wrong, I don't know him very well.

[ligastar]

I noticed ZeeJustin is not signed up for this afternoon's Stars Million (well, at least not signed up under the ZeeJustin brand).

Where does this guy go from here? Where can he play?

Maybe he should move to Santiago, Chile or Lima, Peru...a big South American capital where they have poker rooms and he could apply his trade.

Another option is to stay in the States and play in live card rooms but hire a Hollywood make-up artist to make him up every day so he looks like someone else before heading out the door.

[BadgerPro]

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He knows that it is wrong to grandma.

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Are we using 'grandma' as a verb now? Awesome!

Very well written post CSC.

[DMBFan23]

[Lee Jones]

Hi folks -

We did our own review of ZeeJustin and unfortunately, found that he'd been playing multiple accounts in several tournaments at PokerStars.

* We confiscated the money that he won illicitly.

* We closed his accounts and banned him from PokerStars.

* We are returning the money he won illicitly to players who were harmed by his actions in those same tournaments.

Obviously, we don't like doing this, but the evidence was incontrovertible. We will do whatever it takes to keep our games and tournaments clean.

Best regards,
Lee Jones

PokerStars Poker Room Manager

[illini43]

Wow.

[TomHimself]

Lee keep up the good work, and keep your eyes out for cheaters!

[FakeKramer]

The past few posts have kind of elluded to the question I want to ask: What is ZeeJustin doing right now?

Let's try to keep the jokes to a minimum unless they're really good. I'm genuinely curious what life is like for him right this second. Anyone talk to him on IM since this thing broke out? What's he doing?

[jman220]

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Hi folks -

We did our own review of ZeeJustin and unfortunately, found that he'd been playing multiple accounts in several tournaments at PokerStars.

* We confiscated the money that he won illicitly.

* We closed his accounts and banned him from PokerStars.

* We are returning the money he won illicitly to players who were harmed by his actions in those same tournaments.

Obviously, we don't like doing this, but the evidence was incontrovertible. We will do whatever it takes to keep our games and tournaments clean.

Best regards,
Lee Jones

PokerStars Poker Room Manager

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Keep up the good work