25NL - Going broke with TPTK - Page 3

jmgambler · #21 05-20-2007, 07:20 PM

Less and less I am going to the felt with TPTK, I woulda called the turn too 1/2 pot, But the river fold is easy for me, I learnt long time ago to fold this (not that it gets any easier, LOL).

I have got into a habit of asking myself "What do I beat here" you think Villian will push with AJ/AT here? I expect to see 22/AQ here

jmgambler · #22 05-20-2007, 07:22 PM

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Thanks for the thoughtful comments Entropy. The thing that makes this lesson so hard I think is situations just like this. At showdown the guy turned over a busted flush draw - he had something like 9h5h. I'm not convinced that these calls are -EV overall at 25NL, but the value of learning to let TPTK go at this level is probably a big money saver as I move up.

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I am gonna go back and "Edit" my post to read "Easy river call, its obviously a bluff" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

hummusx · #23 05-20-2007, 09:10 PM

Ok, gotta throw a little more fuel on the fire. Here's a similar-ish hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($69.85)
Hero ($52.25)
SB ($45.70)
BB ($41.70)
UTG ($36.40)
MP ($27.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $1.5, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($3.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $2.5, Hero calls $2.50.

Turn: ($8.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $5.5, Hero raises to $15, CO calls $9.50.

River: ($38.75) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $50.85 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $89.60

Villain showed his hand, what did he have?

jmgambler · #24 05-20-2007, 09:24 PM

No clue but does it matter? ..... guessing by the tone of your post he had T9o?

Minnie Man · #25 05-20-2007, 09:24 PM

Tough situation. I think, depending on villain's aggression factor, a raise on the flop to $15 could have given you a lot of info...if you were prepared to c/c if he called you. The turn bet seems kind of weak again. Another opportunity to raise and find out where you stand.

I don't think this is a terrible line you took. You didn't bloat the pot and he made a good bluff on the end.

It does seem kind of fishy that he bet so small on the turn and the over bet the river. If he had a strong hand, A-Q or set for example, wouldn't he have bet a bit more on the turn, say 2/3 pot so it would be easier for you to call a river bet?

His river bet could either be AQ, a set, runner-runner flush or a big bluff. Tough one.

corsakh · #26 05-20-2007, 10:00 PM

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Less and less I am going to the felt with TPTK, I woulda called the turn too 1/2 pot, But the river fold is easy for me, I learnt long time ago to fold this (not that it gets any easier, LOL).

I have got into a habit of asking myself "What do I beat here" you think Villian will push with AJ/AT here
? I expect to see 22/AQ here

[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of it ASAP. Ask yourself what hand he would play this way, what you beat is irrelevant.

jmgambler · #27 05-20-2007, 10:04 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
Less and less I am going to the felt with TPTK, I woulda called the turn too 1/2 pot, But the river fold is easy for me, I learnt long time ago to fold this (not that it gets any easier, LOL).

I have got into a habit of asking myself "What do I beat here" you think Villian will push with AJ/AT here
? I expect to see 22/AQ here

[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of it ASAP. Ask yourself what hand he would play this way, what you beat is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point, but "what hand he would play this way" & "What hand I beat" goes hand in hand for me (forgive the Pun) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

corsakh · #28 05-20-2007, 10:13 PM

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Ok, gotta throw a little more fuel on the fire. Here's a similar-ish hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($69.85)
Hero ($52.25)
SB ($45.70)
BB ($41.70)
UTG ($36.40)
MP ($27.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $1.5, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($3.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $2.5, Hero calls $2.50.

Turn: ($8.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $5.5, Hero raises to $15, CO calls $9.50.

River: ($38.75) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $50.85 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $89.60

Villain showed his hand, what did he have?

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Its a very different example since the villain was the aggressor preflop and the board texture is totally different.

Its probably KsQs or AhXh, but a donked overpair or a straight is also an option. I think A hearts bets more on the flop though.

Check_The_Nuts · #29 05-20-2007, 10:16 PM

not gunna read the other posts, but I really think that turn is a push and not an overcall again. Calling the turn to call the river is really dicy IMO. He'll probably stack off now with whatever draws he has here.

you could also call flop but fold turn, but taht just feels soooo nitty...

corsakh · #30 05-21-2007, 07:54 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Less and less I am going to the felt with TPTK, I woulda called the turn too 1/2 pot, But the river fold is easy for me, I learnt long time ago to fold this (not that it gets any easier, LOL).

I have got into a habit of asking myself "What do I beat here" you think Villian will push with AJ/AT here
? I expect to see 22/AQ here

[/ QUOTE ]

Get out of it ASAP. Ask yourself what hand he would play this way, what you beat is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take your point, but "what hand he would play this way" & "What hand I beat" goes hand in hand for me (forgive the Pun) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Thinking this way will make your every TP type of hand a real struggle against every regular in 100NL and above once their figure this out )