Issues with the rake

[HP]

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5% up to $15 at 5/10 is identical to 5% up to $3 at 1/2, which is the exact rake structure you'll find online. Can online 1/2 be beaten?

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hmm good point. I suppose if my assumption was correct there was $10 rake per hand, this would imply the game is crazy wild

In any case my brain hurts so I'll just I don't know anything

[Daliman]

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5% up to $15 at 5/10 isn't nearly as bad as 10% up to $4 plus $1 for the dealer toke at live 1/2. Can live 1/2 be beaten?

5% up to $15 at 5/10 is identical to 5% up to $3 at 1/2, which is the exact rake structure you'll find online. Can online 1/2 be beaten?

Last time there was a thread on live winrates, it was said that $100/hour was attainable at the softest 5/10 games. If you assume $200 pots on average, and you win 2.5 pots per hour, then you're paying $25 per hour rather than $12 per hour you'd pay in time collections at other places (plus dealer tokes). Certainly beatable.

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Beatable, sure. Worthwhile? Not likely. The major problem is the fish will get killed off far too quickly, and over a much shorter period of time than average. The $$$ coming off the table is also going to mess up the game in the fact that it creates much shallower stacks than normal, therefore decreasing any edge even further. If everyone bought in for 100BB's, in three hours, average stack after tips is going to be more like 80BB's,(lord knows most dumb enough to play this game aren't going to be tipping $1 a hand...) Even at 200BB's, a 12 hour session drops the average stack to ~120BB's.

If I'm playing in that game, they better have gourmet chefs on-hand, limo service, and all top-shelf liquor served by beautiful topless waitresses.

[russfloyd01]

Ok I usually just read posts but since I know a little bit about this I will post..I have both run a game in Houston and dealt a game in Houston in the past and I can tell you that the $$ they make is ludicrous....On average the house will make between $125-175 a down(30 minutes) and the dealer will pull between $25-45 a down.... The 1st response would be no way can this game be beat... BUT, and its a large BUT the players that come to these games are horrible and give $$ away routinely...There is 1 guy who i wont mention who comes in with $10k cash and is 0-49 at cashing out a penny...Furthermore, it costs a lot of $$ to run a game in Houston...There is rent($2500 a mo) security, food, beverages(including any alcohol a player wants) Cigarettes for the players, cigars, etc etc etc and the most important thing TABBBBB and thats not the drink that comes in pink can... For those ppl who have never played in an illegal game, tab is slang for Credit... Basically noone brings cash to a game because if vice busts the game they confiscate all the $$ and worse if the game gets robbed then all your $$ is gone...So the house needs to insure that they make enough to cover the tab b/c sometimes it takes days, weeks, or longer before a player pays his debt and in some cases they never do yet find another game to get credit at...Unethical yes, but happens all the time! oh btw u ALWAYS get paid when u win before u leave even tho u dont have to pay up front the night u lose.... So, can the game be beat? maybe...Is it better to drive 5 hrs rd trip to maybe get in a game full of nits at a riverboat casino to only pay $5 rake...i think not...The rake hurts the person who plays (wins) most pots..The $$ that comes off tbl isnt an issue b/c there is a house full of suckers and the game never quits...So play fewer pots stay shorter periods of time and gl...

[spino1i]

I would never play in a game that raked $15 a pot. Thats ridicolous. And I thought Commerce rakas were bad lol

[MagicNinja]

despite the lack of sentences in russ' comment, my experience is basically everything he said is true.

BTW 5% capped at $25 a hand is standard in perth, in underground games and casinos.

I know a lot of players who beat these games over large samples. At the underground i used to play at, the rake was higher still and i would basically ALWAYS win when I played there.

Honestly you would be surprised at how much variance goes down once you factor in how huge your edge can really be against these players (and also, at underground games it is a lot more unethical to cashout when u win a big pot or whatever; most people are expected to stay at least 4 hours unless they bust..).

[yocrackattack]

I confront a rake that's actually worse than yours but the games are still VERY profitable. The main thing you have to think about is how much of an edge do you have over the other players... That's the MOST important thing. If it's small you guys are basically passing the $$ back and forth until the house gets it all.
The live game I play is a 2-5 nl he game w/ 5% rake capped at 25€!!! But the game is fantastic because the players have no clue what's going on. If they have black AA on a 456 of hearts flop there is no way on earth they're folding. You basically double up on every good hand you decide to play. So the way I see it is this- would you pay 25€ to double up your stack? Hell, I'd pay €60+ if it was that much of a gurantee... But a few words of caution: throw your bluffs out of the window- and I mean never... And if the game gets short handed take a walk... The variance is too high and you'll basically be passing the cash back and forth at huge costs.

[jomatty]

thats a lot of money coming off of the table for sure. im not gonna speculate on if it is beatable or not because that has too much to do with factors that i have no idea about. certainly it could be beat if the players were bad enough and you were good enough...

anyways the one thing im interested in but not sure about is if you should tighten up or not. my first impression was that you should play significantly tighter and make many less stabs at small ptts, which is my general strategy in games where the rake is prohibitive. If these games were raked at 10% with the same max i would definitely think that would be the right course of action. Since the game is 5% though im not sure if that adjustment is necessary or not in small pots. maybe someone with more experience in these sorts of games could comment.

if it were me in the game i think i would still tighten up considerably. even aside from the rake it sounds like this is not the sort of game that you are going to make a lot of money stealing small pots. i would have an overall tighter gameplan and not fight as much as usual over the small pots.

[llleisure]

I'm in Dallas myself and have heard of high rakes at the 5-10 and up underground games here.

Just so I'm clear, 10% rake is considered very high, 5% is maybe ok if the max is low enough?

[james129]

I have been to places that are 10% up to $10 for 1/2 pot. Houston clubs make a killing from poker being illegal here.

[Reef]

doubt the game is beatable..

if for some reason I HAD to play in it.. no limped pots