$200r, flop hits me hard

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
but i think that's overkill, we can get more value out of the hand than what's in the pot now

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How do we get more value? Are we really expecting to get flat-called? What flat calls a bet from the pfr into this board? Does that flat-calling range give up on any turn, or just the turns that pull ahead or complete their stronger draw?

I can't see why 3-betting or CR-ing gives us more value than shoving here, if we never get any folds and we're only folding after bricking two more streets.

I also think that 2+2 suffers in general from an aversion to non-standard lines. I feel that 'standard' is good in standard MTTs where our opponents will simply be bad. Standard>wrong. However, in this thing, with a bunch of regs who can read hands well and know what standard means, non-standard might/can be better. If hero shoves here, he'll get calls from hands that wouldn't call with the cards face up and folds from hands that would/should.

[Exitonly]

i dont see why you think a c/r has on fold equity. a bet 3 bet is going to leave participants very (>2:1) committed, if we c/r a reasonable bet though, they'll only be getting like 1.6:1 or so. and our hand doesnt seem that transparent, it should get some folds i think.

I just dont think shoving is goig to get any extra folds, if we check we let someone take a stab at the pot, or maybe it checks through and we hit our outs on the turn, which should be pretty disguised, especially the straight. If it checks through then I don't mind taking a stab at it myself on the turn.

i'm still waking up, so this isnt the most coherent post.

[registrar]

Top of the morning to you.

Well, there's two problems with a check-raise. First, it sucks if it checks through unless we turn one of three sevens. Secondly, on this board and in this tournie, a CR shove simply isn't going to get any credit. OK, I'm guessing about that, because I've not played it but I'm not betting into this board and folding to a CR in the $100r for example. WTF am I supposed to put OP on if he CR pushes here?

However, villain simply can't call a shove with QJo or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] X [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the other villains in the hand can't CR the same hands, if that was their plan.

[Exitonly]

any heart 7 or Q is a pretty sweet turn card, J/9's are pretty good. And real blanks like a 2 or 3 are probably good cards for us to bet aswell

[james129]

Shove the flop....donkey move but I think it is the best line in this spot...especially in a rebuy.

QJ/AXh are not going to fold to your flop bet. If you hit your flush or straight you don't know if caller hit the nuts. If you push draws fold and you will get called by tt/99/maybe 22 and both your draws are live. Most of the time you are taking it down on the flop.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
If you push draws fold and you will get called by tt/99/maybe 22

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if villain is folding flopped set after you overshove, then let's look more into that.

[registrar]

Villain isn't going to fold many/any made hands to a shove but, on that board, we're going to felt pretty quick V TP+.

The point is that villain is folding most/all draws.

No one has persuaded that this is unsound for anything other than aesthetic reasons, on that board, against these opponents, after this action and with this hand.

[james129]

I think you are just trying to take down this pot right here....there are better flush and straight draws that you want to be sure not to play against because they will felt you. Worst case scenario you want to be up against two pair or trips which is why you push.

If you bet 1300 and villain calls what do you do if...
heart comes on turn
Q comes on turn

You will be either way ahead or way behind but you are going to have to put a lot of chips at risk to find out.

This is sittuation where you need to be careful what you wish for. Push is good for your image too.