Ethics

[Noel]

Just wanted to get another perspective on this subject, this a post thatwas posted on the www.pokerschoolonline.com forums the other day and has really stirred up some controversy. My take is in a reply to this thread.

Noel

JohnsFlush
Post subject: A Question of Ethics


Last nite in a local live tourney I was in the BB and everyone folds around to the blinds. Not on purpose I saw the SB cards when he looked at them. He had JQ and went allin. I had A9 and his allin was a third of my chips. Question is what should I have done?

[Noel]

To get the thread back on track a player has no ethical responsibility to tell the dealer that a person is exposing their cards at the table. He does have an ethical responsibility if the card was flashed by the dealer.

Each person is to protest their own cards and being careless with them whether inadvertently showing them or failing to protect them from the muck is solely the responsibility of the player.

I do agree that if the player does this it would be nice to discreetly let the player know what they are doing. I believe in 3 strikes and your out, I'll let a player know twice that they are showing their cards after that it's fair game.

I wish that Al would chime in this so we could put it to rest once and for all.


Noel

Here is a post in reply to mine and my answer back.

SamIamZ75 wrote:
So you mean to tell me that if you are sitting across from the table and I notice that someone accidently shows you his cards, it is not your ethical responsiblity to let me have the same information that you do?

With all due respect, I DONT THINK SO.

You can play stupid if you like but its not the right thing to do.
You should immediately notify the table that you saw his card

I do wish one of the PSO "experts would settle this pointless debate.




Sam,

Now your comparing apples and oranges, if I sitting across the table think that a player has shown his cards whether accidently or on pourpose to a player next to him then yes I would ask for a ruling and have the hand declared dead that is not the situation that was asked about. If you are the only person to see the cards you are under no obligation within the rules to reveal it to anyone.

I know from experience because it happened to me at the Horseshoe casino in Tunica a few months ago. I was lucky because I was sitting in the # one position and the way I looked at my cards the dealer could see them without really trying. He let me know that if I was at any other seat I would be giving away information that my opponent could use, and he was under no obligation to say anything about it.

Noel

PS I know for a fact that we have several dealers that play here maybe one of them could shed some more light on the subject.

[rigmarole]

If someone is accidently showing their cards, the right thing to do is to let them know. The person could be new, hopped up on antihistimine or what ever. The ethical and fair thing to do is let them know.

One could make the argument you are not obliged to tell them and I tend to agree. But if more people at the poker table do the courteous and ethical thing in this situation, it gives our community respectability and it could make the difference as to weather the fish sits at a slot machine, the blackjack table or the poker table.

I agree with the 3 strikes concept, after you tell them twice, there is no ethical argument.

[whickerda]

In poker, playing soft is extremely unethical. If your neighbor accidentally shows your their cards you definitely do have an ethical responsibility. You should pretend that you saw nothing and you should make that opponent pay for their mistake.

As has been noted many times before, it is your responsibility, and noone else's, to protect your friggin' hand. Anyone that says you have some responsibility to notify anyone when you see an opponents cards doesn't understand the history and culture of the game.

When you're sitting in seat 1 or 10 and a dealer notes that your exposing your cards, thank them for teaching you that lesson before your opponents do their duty and take advantage of you for it.

[mikehildebrand]

Coint Flip. Ethics has nothing to do with it. You have +EV, but not by much here, do the math, make the decision and make the call or fold.

[mikehildebrand]

I agree, I love nothing more than to be in seat one and watch as seat ten opens their cards toward the dealer. Sorry, but this isn't a cash game, its a tourney, and I am there to win - not neccissarily make friends. Seeing cards = +EV.

[KipBond]

You are a 4:3 favorite. Call.

When there are other people involved in the hand, and you see someone's cards, it's only fair to the others at the table, that you let them know you saw the cards.

Not doing so is a violation of the "show one show all" rule, and it is implicit collusion.

[SheridanCat]

As you can see, these types of situations aren't easy and there is no one "ethic" that all subscribe to.

Personally, if a player next to me is flashing cards, I usually warn them. However, if the player is an experienced and knowledgeable poker player and not a beginner, I do not tell them. If I'm not sure of their status, I tell them. Once is enough and after that it's all fair game.

However, that's irrelevant in the posted scenario. The cards were seen when it's heads up and both players are still in. What are you supposed to do? Fold just because an opponent can't protect his hand? If people know you'll fold in that position, you'll start receiving angle shots. In fact, the ethical play is to use the information to your advantage in this specific case. It's ethical because, overall, it protects the integrity of the game.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
It's ethical because, overall, it protects the integrity of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arguable. The integrity of the game requires that you not know for certain what your opponents hole cards are. If they are only hurting themselves by showing you, then a single warning is fine. However, with other people in the game, they are hurting THOSE people also, and giving you an unfair advantage over them. That is definitely NOT preserving the integrity of the game. So, you have to reveal that you saw the cards so other players have access to the same information. That minimizes the damage done.

[Bona]

I don't see an ethical dilemna here if you saw the cards because villian wasn't protecting his hand correctly. You now have the information. Use it. You can tell him now or later if you want to. You can tell the dealer if you want to. There are no other players behind you that are affected. Your option.

Your real dilemna is whether to call off a third of your stack getting about a 53/47 edge (per poker stove) I probably would in most situations. But I don't think it is automatic in early stages of a tournament.