Stud 8 pot limit - lots of raises on 3rd street, hero's action?

[kyotolaw]

Pot Limit Stud Hi/Lo 5/10 blinds

Hero: 3d7d 2d (Late position) Stack $1300
LAG1: xx 6s (SB) $1000
TAG2: xx 7c (BB) $1050

Folded around to Hero, Hero bets pot

LAG1 raises pot

TAG2 raises pot

Hero Calls

LAG1 Re-raises all in

TAG2 Calls ($50 remaining, so pot-committed)

Pot $2115

Hero's action? ($885 to call)

This is our high stakes home game - buy-in is $1000, blinds are 5/10, all games are pot limit. LAG1 is a little tilty - he lost a few badugi hands earlier. Usually a good player. Has just been stacked though. TAG2 is a very good player. Capable of hard laydowns and never afraid to get money in the pot when he thinks he has the best of it. Have to give him credit for a very good hand.

This game is fairly serious - big stakes for most people at the table, and swings of $5-10K a night are not unknown. 3 raises on 3rd street, all for pot size is pretty unusual - might happen once a month or so, but I've never seen it for stud/8 before.

Thoughts? I'm interested in reads on the other players holdings, my actions so far, and whether a call is justified.

I'll let you know the results later.

My first hand in this forum, please be kind!

[LearnedfromTV]

PL Stud 8 looks cool, I'll take a stab.

I ran some numbers at twodimes.net.

vs 777 and 456 spades, you still have 27.5% equity. I doubt you can be much worse off than that. Replace rolled sevens with AA7 and you have 32%. If you all have low flush draws, you're basically racing; at worst you're like 29% if they both have better low draws. $885 to win $3k, you need 29.5%, against their ranges, you probably have it. Call and gamboool.

[Phat Mack]

I think that when you called the first re-raise with the LAG behind you, you were pretty much committing yourself to the pot.

The relative stack sizes have to be pretty big for me to raise on 3rd street in a good PL stud game. Here they are ~100x bb. I think you can wait until 4th or 5th here, get somebody trapped or whipsawed, and still get it all in by the river.

When the effective stacks are ~300-500x bb, you have to start building a little earlier, which brings us to your starting hand. 732s is OK: suited with a 7 low draw, but with no ace and little straight potential. At a full table it's a top 10% hand. A hand with similar starting strength at a full table is AA4 with a suit, but it plays much better in this situation. One thing you have to ask yourself in PL is whether you want to play a big pot or a small pot, and with 732s on 3rd street, I'm still willing to keep the pot small, so I don't like the 3rd street raise.

jmo

Mack

[kyotolaw]

Thanks for the great replies.

Let me know when I should post results.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the great replies.

Let me know when I should post results.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, what happened?

[kyotolaw]

I called the $885.

TAG and I agreed that his last $50 should go in before we dealt any more cards - we knew it'd go in anyway...

Hero: 3d 7d 2d
LAG1: 6c 5s 6c
TAG2: 7s 7h 7c

As you can imagine, LAG1 was not best pleased. TAG1 didn't like that I had his case 7 either, but it didn't change much for his odds.

I don't remember all the cards, but TAG1 didn't improve his trip 7s, while I think LAG1 got two pair, but no low.

I had a beautiful 4d come on 4th street, then brick, As on 6th for half the pot and free roll on the river for a straight or flush. River was 5c - Wheel for the scoop.

So this really turned into a brag post - but my thinking was not so sophisticated at the time, and I wanted to hear what some more seasoned players might have done.

I put TAG1 on a high pair under, and LAG2 on a low draw - pleasantly surprised to find them both high. It was still a difficult call though - a call of $100 turned into getting all my money in the pot before seeing any more cards - it was very unexpected, and I think Phat Mack's comment about my initial raise is very good - this represents the danger of not thinking about pot size when considering the nature of your hand.

Thanks for both of your comments - both insightful and much appreciated. I did the same thing as LearnedfromTV as soon as I got home - ran the numbers on twodimes.net - in retrospect I did the right thing, 31.6% equity on 3 to 1 odds.

[Phat Mack]

I put TAG1 on a high pair under, and LAG2 on a low draw - pleasantly surprised to find them both high.

They have high hands, but high hands that can turn into low hands. It turns out that LAG was completely dominated here, but I'm not sure he played it that incorrectly for a LAG. I was hoping some other posters would wander by and comment on LAG's play. TAG's play I like a lot.

in retrospect I did the right thing, 31.6% equity on 3 to 1 odds.

Some quick math: If LAG starts with a dime, and TAG has 1050 with 50 left, the starting pot has to be $3000. If you're putting in 885 to win 2115, you're getting more like 2.4:1. You're hand is 1:2.2, so you still squeak in there, but that's too slight an advantage for live-action pot limit.

But anyway, the point of all this is: Look at the EV of 777. It's above 55%, and he's getting 2:1 -- he's in the best situation here. The best two hands in this game are AAA and 888, I think 777 is #3 or #4.

Very nice pot. I think dragging it down in this situation is worth a lot more in the meta-game. I love raking in $3k. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Every once in a while we get posts on this forum announcing that stud can't be played pot limit, but it's really an interesting game.

[kyotolaw]

LAG said after the hand that the second raise was designed to get him headsup with TAG - I think I have a table rep of folding to big reraises.

I didn't put TAG on rolled 7s because I had the case 7 - but I agree that he did everything perfectly.

Of course you are right on the maths on the odds. I am crap at doing those calculations - I tend to conceptualise as "If I have 31% chance of winning, and my call is less than 31% of the total pot after I call, then its +EV." Essentially the same calculation, but I have trouble expressing it in the form of x:1 odds.

It was a wonderful pot, and did help me on the meta game. I won another huge pot two hands later, but it wasn't as interesting as this one.

Stud as pot limit is very interesting, but often because its about getting money in on 3rd or 4th street, and letting the cards fall. I think its very good at reinforcing discipline on hand selection, because it punishes mistakes in a very expensive way.

[betgo]

Is this game in Britain? Are you playing just stud/8, a rotation mixed game, or dealer's choice?

[kyotolaw]

Not in Britain, no...

We play dealer's choice, basically casino games only. Common games are Hold em, Omaha, Omaha hi/lo, Stud, Stud hi/lo. Badugi and Mississippi make rare appearances.