3 betting turn w/ one pair

[Lunar Tweak]

Live 15/30 at the Wynn. Button recently sat down and seems like a LAG, BB is a tourist who doesn't have much of a clue.

i open-raise A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] from the hijack, button 3-bets, BB takes two to the face, and i call.

Flop 3 players (9.5sb)
8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, i bet, BU raises, BB calls, i call.

Turn 3 players (8bb)
8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

BB checks, i donk, BU insta-raises, BB feels obligated to call, i 3 bet...?

sexy or not worth it even if i'm 75% sure i'm ahead? comments on flop also appreciated.

[benwood]

Pre/flop raise is marginal but ok,imo.Flop donk is good.I would just check/call the turn.

[Verde]

75% sure that you are ahead is pretty crazy if the only read you have is that he seems like a lag.
You don't want to 3bet here.

[Brunger]

lol at taking two to the face. Three-betting the turn is a spew in most cases but if you are sure you have the best hand by all means do so. I just can't seem to justify it after this action and you know you have to dodge a lot of cards and your not sure which ones. Flop and turn combo really good imo gives bb best chance to fold.

[Lunar Tweak]

well, my body language reading skills aren't the greatest, but i was thinking that if BU had an overpair, he'd at least have to think about raising/calling the turn for a second. then there's also the hesitation bet/raise when people are ultra-strong (if he had a set here). so i took his insta-raise as trying to appear strong. anyone else notice similar betting habits among people?

[Michael Davis]

If the player is aggressive enough that you have to pay him off the whole way with your hand, threebetting the turn is a fine option. But if he is such that you can just fold outright to the turn raise-- this is obviously not the case since you didn't but it does describe many live players still-- than it's just a terrible spew. Against many more live players, you can just call the turn and fold if he bets again on the river.

It's a fine play here because I don't think you're ever getting fourbet off of your outs especially when you're drawing dead, but it's a fancy play and you need to ask yourself if you can save bets instead.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

I was wrong in my response. I think threebetting with 87 here is fine but A8 is probably not correct because the free showdown types of hands that your opponent might have only contain 2 or 3 outs.

-Michael

[Lunar Tweak]

[ QUOTE ]
I was wrong in my response. I think threebetting with 87 here is fine but A8 is probably not correct because the free showdown types of hands that your opponent might have only contain 2 or 3 outs.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

i've been thinking about what you said here a lot, and i don't think i quite grasp it. are you saying the difference is w/ A8 i could be drawing to 2 outs, whereas 87 i'm almost always drawing to 5 outs if behind so the raise has more equity? (though probably minus the spade outs)

and/or the possibility that if he has A-high, we don't mind giving him a chance to spike an A to pay me off on the river? where-as he might fold this hand to a turn 3 bet?

by the way michael, i took a lot out of your other post. i probably over-played my hand this time w/o enough info on the player. but i totally undestand that there's different lines for different types of players. thanks again.

[Michael Davis]

What I'm saying is that part of the reason for threebetting the turn is to get him to fold a hand with outs- if he's freeshowdowning you with AQ or something, he might decide he has 0 outs when you threebet and fold his hand. Again, this doesn't describe most live players, but there are some. Most live players will just flat out have it when they pop you on the turn.

So threebetting with 87 is better than with A8 because if your opponent has overcards with an ace he has six outs against 87 but only half that against A8. So it's more important to get him to fold when we have 87.

-Michael

[cgrohman]

This strikes me as a spew in several places.