Worst kicker

[kerowo]

What hands are you calling raises with when an unknown open raises from MP 2 or 3? I like to find 35+ vpip tables to play on. Those tables are too loose to make money on these hands because you generally can't get people to fold under pp, let alone tp or 2p.

If the table tightens up and pre-flop raises are taking down the pots more often than not then open raising these hands isn't bad, but I don't care for those tables and try and avoid them.

[fretelöo]

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I'm going to stick with these hands not being +EV to raise first in from MP in a full ring game against a table of unknowns. Especially for people just starting out. Primarily because post flop decisions become much more difficult playing these hands out of position. Of course there are situations where you can raise these hands profitably from any postion, but the OP wasn't in one and probably doesn't have the experience to make that play standard. If you are comfortable playing those hands go ahead, but don't underestimate where you are in your poker career vs the OP.

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Say the blinds are loose and the other guys rockish. Would raising be ok, or do you want everyone to be tight and passive?

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If everyone is tight and passive, it's a dream for you because often you'll just pick up the blinds. If the blinds are loose and the rest tight-passive, it's not so bad either. You got a decent hand for HU play: You have some str8-potential and any pair you make will have a reasonable chance of being the best pair.

Naturally, your dream board would be something like 44T, but even KQ9 will be very decent because he can have a lot of hands that can call here: He often has some GS-type hand or 9x or whatever. The point is not that he COULD have a K, but rather that he'll call with a lot more BUT a K.

[Watkins]

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Some back ground. I'm playing .25/.50 on Stars where you are more likely to get called down with any part of the board than to get a top pair weak kicker hand to fold to aggression.

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Kerowo, if this is the case then shouldn't the weaker TP hands we're talking about should be more profitable? Isn't this is exactly the sort of situation where the weaker TP hands should be played?

edit: to say that the range of starting hands that these guys will call with also has an impact here. However by playing more marginal hands you're creating more opportunities to value bet against these players.

[kerowo]

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Some back ground. I'm playing .25/.50 on Stars where you are more likely to get called down with any part of the board than to get a top pair weak kicker hand to fold to aggression.

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Kerowo, if this is the case then shouldn't the weaker TP hands we're talking about should be more profitable? Isn't this is exactly the sort of situation where the weaker TP hands should be played?

edit: to say that the range of starting hands that these guys will call with also has an impact here. However by playing more marginal hands you're creating more opportunities to value bet against these players.

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I don't think we were talking about not value betting tp weak kicker when I was responding to this, I think we were talking about outplaying folks post flop, which usually involves convincing them to let go of made hands because we obviously have a better made hand. When you have a preponderance of calling stations this won't work, they won't believe their 88 is no good on an AKKxx board after a pre-flop raise, flop bet, turn bet, river bet.

[Watkins]

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Some back ground. I'm playing .25/.50 on Stars where you are more likely to get called down with any part of the board than to get a top pair weak kicker hand to fold to aggression.

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Kerowo, if this is the case then shouldn't the weaker TP hands we're talking about should be more profitable? Isn't this is exactly the sort of situation where the weaker TP hands should be played?

edit: to say that the range of starting hands that these guys will call with also has an impact here. However by playing more marginal hands you're creating more opportunities to value bet against these players.

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I don't think we were talking about not value betting tp weak kicker when I was responding to this, I think we were talking about outplaying folks post flop, which usually involves convincing them to let go of made hands because we obviously have a better made hand. When you have a preponderance of calling stations this won't work, they won't believe their 88 is no good on an AKKxx board after a pre-flop raise, flop bet, turn bet, river bet.

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I don't agree with this, "outplaying" your opponent means different things against different opponents. Outplaying a calling station means "value betting" more (IMO) and by playing those weaker TP hands against them you give yourself more opportunity to do this.

[karlwig]

without looking at results, my reaction to both hands were that you played them too agressivly post-flop. i think the preflop raise is fine; you can't ONLY raise with pairs and big Aces and Kings. But you didn't hit hard on either hands, and I wouldn't bet and call re-raises until showdown with them.

[Xhad]

kerowo, the idea that the QTo raise is just to bluff away the pot is the wrong way of looking at it. If you get coldcalled in 3 places then don't bet the flop unless you flop a pair. And if you figured that was going to happen, then limping is better than folding. If they're going to pay off with all kinds of junk then fine, QTo is still two overcards against 44.

[bravos1]

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But you didn't hit hard on either hands

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I'd say we hit pretty good on both hands. If you expect to hit 2 pair or better before getting more bets in, you should not be raising these PF and should probably take up checkers or hungry hungry hippo!

[kerowo]

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kerowo, the idea that the QTo raise is just to bluff away the pot is the wrong way of looking at it. If you get coldcalled in 3 places then don't bet the flop unless you flop a pair. And if you figured that was going to happen, then limping is better than folding. If they're going to pay off with all kinds of junk then fine, QTo is still two overcards against 44.

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OP gave us no table or player reads and probably doesn't know what an isolation raise is. If I remember correctly he was basically trying to steal the blinds from late MP with these open raises. There are tables where the conditions are right to be raising these hands first in but my impression was that OP was looking for validation of standard plays he makes. As a standard play QTo and JTo aren't strong enough for me to be playing in those positions as a limp or as a raise, even though I know how to play them post flop and don't worry about getting outplayed a tremendous amount. I'm not at a point in my game where I need to push what ever small edge there is in playing these hands.

[werero]

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hand 1:
either 3bet the flop or raise the turn. (if we didnt pick up a gutshot on the turn i would be fine with waiting til the river to raise)


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Why is a turn or river raise good here. Is it for value? Do you play like this against passive opponents too?