3/6 A5s, Lots of Room for Debate

[StrictlyStrategy]

For those who are saying fold(opposed to raise; I think everyone's in the "dont call camp?")

when do you start to raise AXs in this spot? A7s? A9s?

[Chino987]

live game this is an easy limp...online, eh i think a fold.

A8s+ for me is a open raise.

as played i raise the flop, bet the turn and check the river.

[Ricks]

You are 2 off the button. This is a raise pf.

[James.]

why is this an autofold pf? i really don't get that. A5s should be profitable from the hijack. especially given we have no callers in front, we have a crappy loosepassive behind us, the LAG we have crushed in the SB, the weak/tight passive in the BB and our superior postflop skillz.

i will admit, i would autoraise pf and not even think twice about it. i understand the rationale for not raising given the fact that you will often have a coldcaller or two behind you(among other things). it should be realized, a big part of the reason to make the pf raise is to win the blinds immediately or help take it down with a c-bet on the flop UI. given those left to act, this rarely to never happens and as such it makes raising pf less attractive.

given all this i'm not saying i would not raise, but i see a rationale for not doing it. i am CERTAINLY playing in this spot, though.

[steakhouse]

But that's the problem James. With a hand like this you just don't want postflop action since you can't get into a nice 5-way+ pot cheaply. If your opponents play a lot of hands you can tighten your range. With different kind of opponents I would open raise from this spot. A7s is close and I would fold A6s against these opponents.

I doubt that a lot of players have a positive ev with this hand from this spot in their database.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
A7s is close and I would fold A6s against these opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

how did you come up with this? i mean, did you have some empirical means of establishing this? i think it's definitely a play, and like i said i'm usually raising. limping isn't bad. folding probably is.

for me, i look for reasons to get into pots with crappy players. a suited ace in the Hijack is more than enough for me to get involved. you understand some decent portion of the time we are holding the best hand, right? folding in that situation is leaving money on the table.

like i said, if you don't play well postflop and you can't laydown a hand like top pair to a tight passive that puts pressure on you, folding might be your best option. if you continually pass on small edges and various profitable situations such as this, you are not going to earn as much as you should and might be lucky just to beat the rake in the longrun.

[RatFink]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me try to be all Sklansky-like & ask a question that I believe I already know the answer to: can any of you think of a reason why it might be good to openlimp this hand in this one particular instance?

I'm not saying that it is the right move, just that I had what I think is a pretty good rationale for doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well given your reads, it appears the rationale is based on CO's desire to cold call rather than 3 bet you. As your hand either has HU value or large field value but not small field value, it would seem that raising would never get the hand HU, and limping would ensure multiway action.

My opinion is that given the seating conditions the hand isn't worth playing from this spot, so I'd muck it. But if you do intend on playing it, then a raise is better than a limp. The hand will play easier from the flop on especially with a passive button.

[steakhouse]

James: I do play well enough postflop but I still don't think that playing this hand is +EV. I guess I'm passing on small edges sometimes, but I do dodge the -EV ones as well. I have over 2.5BB/100h over 25k hands (1/2$-5/10$ FL full ring, majority of the hands are from 2/4$) so I guess I've been lucky enough to beat the rake.

And no, I haven't done any empirical studies to come up with that range.

[ QUOTE ]
you understand some decent portion of the time we are holding the best hand, right? folding in that situation is leaving money on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]Either my english is not good enough and I don't understand what you mean or I beg to differ. Reverse implied odds do apply here too, especially with Ace no kicker.

[JojoDiego]

Preflop: I'm playing this a lot, and usually for a raise to possibly win it immediately and get it heads-up/buy the button when I don't take it down. I can see your limp, though--you probably won't win it now, so why not try to get it fully multiway (the reads are set up for that).

Flop: I'm not seeing why you don't raise here for value and to get it heads-up with your ATM?

Turn: same?

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you understand some decent portion of the time we are holding the best hand, right? folding in that situation is leaving money on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]Either my english is not good enough and I don't understand what you mean or I beg to differ. Reverse implied odds do apply here too, especially with Ace no kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, reverse implied odds are usually a concern with hands like this. BUT, take a look at our opponents(tight passive CO, the loose passive button, the LAG sb and the tight passive big blind). the only player i would feel like i need to payoff is the LAG in the sb(and i might do that UI on certain boards). since we can usually get away from hands like top pair versus the other 3 guys, reverse implied odds shouldn't have such a pronounced effect on our decision-making here.

also, my point was our Ahigh is the best hand pf some decent portion of the time. a bit simplistic, but folding the best hand is leaving money on the table.