Party 5/10 - Who Folds on Flop? - Page 2

toss · #11 02-24-2006, 04:09 AM

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Lead the flop.

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Why?

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We can quite a bit of information which makes the rest of the hand play much eaiser.

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So only for info?

Niediam · #12 02-24-2006, 04:40 AM

I'm confused as to what you think checkraising does that leading out doesn't.

Clarkmeister · #13 02-24-2006, 06:53 AM

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I don't like leading the flop as that doesn't seem to accomplish much. I prefer the OP's line of checking with the intention of raising. However, we didn't anticipate facing a bet and a raise.

Without reads we are in a tough spot. I think we should 3-bet here for the following reasons:
(1) We are still ahead of MPs range a lot here; all he did was continuation bet a flop after raising before the flop. He could easily have AK, JJ, TT, 99, KJ, or who knows what here. Since many of his holdings have one or two overcards to the board, I'd be happy to knock him out right now.

(2) This is crucial: the CO is a poster. That widens his hand range and makes it much more likely he has a Q with a worse kicker or that he is making a SSHE raise with a smaller pair here. Given the information available to us, we can realistically expect to be ahead of CO a fair amount of the time here.

(3) We have a backdoor flush draw which gives us a little bit more equity.

Given all this, I think 3-betting the flop and remaining the aggressor on the turn if the betting is not capped is the right plan. We are not committed to showdown, but we still have a good reason to head in that direction.

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Good post. We definitely don't want to fold here given the situation. 3-betting is the way to go.

mahogany17 · #14 02-24-2006, 09:18 AM

OK. Thank you everyone. I agree that any play would have been better than what I did. Check and call to river. Below is the hand.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $5.
3 folds, MP2 raises, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Jh (two pair, queens and fours).
CO has Ad As (two pair, aces and fours).
Outcome: CO wins 9.70 BB.

Bill C · #15 02-24-2006, 09:29 AM

A three bet might have defined things a little better, as I assume CO would have capped.

But having just called on the flop, I think a turn lead would have been better. Had you lead the turn, you could fold to CO's raise with a clear conscience.

Just my $.02 worth...

bill c

psuasskicker · #16 02-24-2006, 10:38 AM

As most do, I think leading the flop is best. Once what happens, happens, I think you've gotta fold here.

- C -

Elevens · #17 02-24-2006, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

We can quite a bit of information which makes the rest of the hand play much eaiser.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] So sad.

gopnik · #18 02-24-2006, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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I don't like leading the flop as that doesn't seem to accomplish much. I prefer the OP's line of checking with the intention of raising. However, we didn't anticipate facing a bet and a raise.

Without reads we are in a tough spot. I think we should 3-bet here for the following reasons:
(1) We are still ahead of MPs range a lot here; all he did was continuation bet a flop after raising before the flop. He could easily have AK, JJ, TT, 99, KJ, or who knows what here. Since many of his holdings have one or two overcards to the board, I'd be happy to knock him out right now.

(2) This is crucial: the CO is a poster. That widens his hand range and makes it much more likely he has a Q with a worse kicker or that he is making a SSHE raise with a smaller pair here. Given the information available to us, we can realistically expect to be ahead of CO a fair amount of the time here.

(3) We have a backdoor flush draw which gives us a little bit more equity.

Given all this, I think 3-betting the flop and remaining the aggressor on the turn if the betting is not capped is the right plan. We are not committed to showdown, but we still have a good reason to head in that direction.

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Good post. We definitely don't want to fold here given the situation. 3-betting is the way to go.

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what if CO did not post? Then he either has a better Q or a medium pp, like 99 or TT. Do we still want to 3-bet?

BostonMetro · #19 02-24-2006, 03:11 PM

He didn't ask, "What is every single reason for betting the flop?". This is certainly one reason to lead out. The other reason is that we probably have the best hand. If you lead, are raised and three bet, you can safely throw your cards under. Whereas here, when you drop you are afraid you are against 99-JJ and AK. If you lead, are raised, and then called, I think you have to see the next street and probably lead out again. If you are raised again by the same player, you can probably get away from your TPMK against a tight player and call down against a LAG would could have the JJ or AKo here.

Niediam · #20 02-24-2006, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

We can quite a bit of information which makes the rest of the hand play much eaiser.

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] So sad.

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Hmmmm? Would you rather we just check/called the whole way and hope our hand is good?

Check raising accomplishes the same thing as betting out except that if the CO raises when we have to make a guess if he is raising with a real hand or something weak (hoping that the PFR missed). Of course if we are ahead checkraising probably gives us extra bets.