How important is Math and SHHE?

[Masquerade]

To answer that question correctly and reconcile with all the responses here you're going to have to remember that both of the following are true:

1) It's nearly all math

2) Many good players have such strong mathematical intuition hard-wired into their brains that they're unaware of even using it

[maka2184]

So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post, but seeing as emerson said I was only asking for the pot odds etc, do you put those (pot odds, EV, fold equity) in the same criteria in terms of the amount of math used?

When you guys mention that the math becomes so simple due to the fact that you've been through the same situation over and over again. Does that mean you understand the math because you know which play is correct based on experience and you don't even need to do exact calculations to figure it out? Or the calculations becomes easier and faster because you've done it so many times? I'm guessing it's both but I was curious because I'm having a difficult time doing exact calculations correctly in my head when I'm playing, especially when I'm multi tabling. Is there a way to improve on this or is this something that has to do with long years of exp?

[sweetjazz]

I suspect that in the next five to ten years, the players who become the "very best" at limit hold em will have incorporated the ideas of game theory into their play beyond what is done now.

In fact, I have a few ideas in this regard that would probably take nothing more than a dozen or two hours of calculations and simulations that would potentially increase my ability to play against other tough opponents, but so far I have been lazy and just continue to look for weak games that I can beat even while playing badly on a not infrequent basis.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post,

[/ QUOTE ]

Read your first post in the thread again. You ask how important it is to calculate pot odds, etc.

This is what lead to a minor disagreement. What I meant to say is that you use math, but you don't "do" math in these situations. When I flop an inside straight draw with an ace overcard, I "know" how many bets have to be in the pot for me to make a call. I know what size pot I need to see to continue with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards, etc. I don't calculate this out at the table. I am not doing math. But I am making decisions based on math.

There are lots of times you have to "do" math at the table and calculate some things. But most situaitons come up again and again and you simply remember. When it is close you rely on other information, reads, etc.

[danzasmack]

[ QUOTE ]
I hardly use math

[/ QUOTE ]

but you understand the math behind your actions and why you make certain plays

Nobody sits there with a calculator and has their whole game rely on math. That's just for tv people to say. As a "math guy" i HATE when people say this.

It's an important part of the game that you get out of the way in like the first 20 minutes you try and learn poker.

[maka2184]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post,

[/ QUOTE ]

Read your first post in the thread again. You ask how important it is to calculate pot odds, etc.

This is what lead to a minor disagreement. What I meant to say is that you use math, but you don't "do" math in these situations. When I flop an inside straight draw with an ace overcard, I "know" how many bets have to be in the pot for me to make a call. I know what size pot I need to see to continue with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards, etc. I don't calculate this out at the table. I am not doing math. But I am making decisions based on math.

There are lots of times you have to "do" math at the table and calculate some things. But most situaitons come up again and again and you simply remember. When it is close you rely on other information, reads, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm in my first post (first sentence actually)I mentioned at the beginning this was not a question asking about pot odds and I was asking in terms of pot equity, fold equity, whether certain plays are +EV. I thoguht I made that clear in the second paragraph.. Did I really phrase my question that badly or is this some kind of sarcasm?

[emerson]

Alright, I see. You start by saying, "just to make sure this isn't" and then go on to say...etc.

I read the intent of your question incorrectly.

Anyone doing well at higher stakes does one of three things: they either make lots of calculations, they have a huge amount of memorized odds and such for frequently occuring situations, or they have some internal algorithm (like a savant) and don't even realize they are doing much math.