live limit holdem, raising for value preflop?

[Harv72b]

I coldcall with the intention of raising a favorable flop. I would play JJ the same way under these conditions, and often QQ as well.

As you pointed out, the 3bet is not going to get anyone out of the pot, and is only going to serve to bloat the pot to where most of these players will be able to chase profitably with as little as one overcard after the flop. It's also going to have the effect of tying you to the pot, which I'd rather not do with a medium pocket pair in a no fold'em game.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
3 limpers + PF raiser + 2 blinds + Hero = 7 players so the 3 bet is getting 7:1 on a 6:1 set shot. Set's don't always win = small discount. But add value for position, implied odds, and possible free card on the turn if the flop misses, and my live mental math sees this problem an easy 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the call here (but I admit I'm probably too passive preflop live). I'll raise sometimes just to mix it up, but I think its extremely close.

- Its 8:1 to hit your set.
- A free card to the turn is not worth much. Since if you've missed on the flop, you're drawing very slim. If it gets checked around on the flop, its probably worth betting since you're likely to have the best hand and don't want a free card for everybody.
- You're implied odds don't make this a raise. If you have implied odds but not actual odds you want to avoid putting money in before you hit your hand (since you're losing money at that point in time).

Edit: I'll add that I'd 3-bet this with jacks, or if I expected I'd only be up against 3 or so opponents. I feel that too often tens against this many opponents is going to end up needing to hit a set to win.

[511 Peas]

So we really don't think taking that bus to 3-town has a good chance of pushing out not only the blinds, but at least one of the original limpers? Yeah, most low-limit live games are super-loose, but also tend towards ultra-passive.

Wouldn't we rather play this already large pot 3 or 4 way than 6 or 7 (where in the latter case we MUST hit a set, and in the former we have chances to win without.)

I'm not a pro/semi-pro, I'm a noob; feel free to tell me where I'm mistaken.

~The Pea

[aK13]

You have position, and you're missing way too much value against people who are limping crap. TT is too strong to just cold call, and JJ/QQ is even worse.

[fishyak]

Peas - don't look to this post to answer your question. In the OP we were asked to ASSUME that everyone is going to cold call/call. You are positing a substantially different situation than that of the OP. I suggest that you find a way to raise your question in a separate post.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
You have position, and you're missing way too much value against people who are limping crap. TT is too strong to just cold call, and JJ/QQ is even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see really see it. I poker stoved 6 opponents, you have TT and your opponents have top 15%, 25%, 40%, 40%, 60%, random hands. You have 18.5% equity. Plus I put TT in the category of hand where its hard to get your complete equity out of them because they're hard to play post flop. You've got really good position which certainly helps, but I just don't see its that easy of a raise. I guess its the best play, but I don't think cold-calling is bad and the equity edge is probably small enough that game circumstances should often dictate what you do. But like I said, I'm too passive preflop.

[lippy]

OTB You 3-bet TT. End of story.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
OTB You 3-bet TT. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've got a tight raiser that you can put on QQ+ you lose money on 3-betting. Making a blanket statement like this is silly.