50NL ATs in 3-bet pot, 3-way hand. Flops nuts

inspir3d · #1 05-06-2007, 10:14 AM

UTG has been very frisky and raising light. i decide to 3-bet light with the intention of taking down the pot on the flop.

BTN seems to be a typical player.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $49.50
BB: $58.15
UTG: $80.35
Hero (MP): $56.25
CO: $53.75
BTN: $27.35

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $3.50, CO folds, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $1.50

Flop: ($11.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, Hero check raises or bets?

KEW · #2 05-06-2007, 10:22 AM

HERO bets $9-$10..Do not slowplay..This flop likely hit both of there ranges..Get the money in NOW...Half the deck will either kill your hand or kill your action...Bet andraise this flop every chance you get..

inspir3d · #3 05-06-2007, 10:27 AM

Flop: ($11.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9.5, BTN calls $9.5, UTG folds

Turn: ($30.25) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero does what now???

KEW · #4 05-06-2007, 10:29 AM

Shove it AI..BTN has ONLY 1/2PSB left..

inspir3d · #5 05-06-2007, 10:32 AM

well... what weaker hand calls? JJ and QQ and QK make their boat.

the only hands i beat are AK or QJ or 9T, and QJ and 9T are likely to have folded preflop, yes?

inspir3d · #6 05-06-2007, 10:36 AM

i was thinking on the flop JJ and QQ will bet, so its better to check-raise all in on the flop.

Dunkman · #7 05-06-2007, 11:24 AM

First, I don't care if you want advice on it or not, the PF is terrible. If you wanna 3-bet this guy light, do it in a later position, not when there's 4 people left to act. Also, I'm not sure what the point behind a 3-bet minraise is. What hands do you usually make this play with?

You reraise PF and flopped the nuts on a flop where you're almost certain to get tons of action. You should obviously bet...it looks more suspicious if you don't bet. If villain flopped a set and you flopped a straight, you're getting it in no matter what, so don't worry about trying to get it all in on the flop. Your read is that the button isn't a total moron, so KQ is out of his range (you 3-bet pf.) Range could be something like AA-TT and AK. TT may seem unlikely, and probably is, but it's open ended, and he has to figure there's no ten in your hand. Still, for the sake of discussion, lets go worst case and remove TT. So, we have 3 JJ, 3 QQ, 1 KK, 3 AA, and 6 AK. This is an ultra tight range, and you're ahead of it. Not to mention you're getting 3:1 on a shove (you only have to win 1 in 4 for getting all in on the turn to be more profitable than folding) so just stick it in. A more important factor here, not just with this hand but any situation like this, is that anyone willing to call a flop bet, in a reraised pot, and that board, is willing to play for stacks. If you are both willing to go all-in UI, then it doesn't matter when the money goes in (I'm not saying you can just overbet shove in this situation...that's a big red flag and could get someone to fold hands they'd stack off with...I mean by making normal looking bets.) It's not like he's folding JJ or QQ on the turn if it's a 2 instead of a K. I mean it's unfortunate for you that the turn paired the board (although it does mean AK gives up the stack now), but it in no way affected how the betting sequence of the hand was going to turn out. I hope you understand what I mean.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but this does look kinda like a BBV post. There's no escape for you here. Also, on the pf, the play just isn't theoretically sound on several levels. I do weird things occasionally just to mix things up, but I want to make sure you understand that the play is not at all sound.

inspir3d · #8 05-06-2007, 11:36 AM

hi dunkman thanks for ur comments.

could u discuss a bit more about the theory of 3-betting as i am currently trying to incorporate the tool into my play.

i retrospect i think the minraise is unsound... i feel that i should have 3-bet more to like $6. but the reason why i did that was because UTG was raising like 30% of his hands.

i 3-bet light when i think a player is raising preflop very light and splashing around. and i will do so with PPs or SCs or big suited aces like ATs+. i 3-bet to overrepresent my hand as i think with his range he will probably miss the flop a big % of the time and i can take it down with a c-bet.

Dunkman · #9 05-06-2007, 12:26 PM

There's nothing wrong with 3-betting a maniac villain with this hand, I have no problem with that. In this particular instance, there's a couple problems. First, there's 4 people left to act. ATs may crush villains range, but if anyone else gets involved you're a big dog to their range. Making this move from a later position increases the chance you'll get HU with the bad villain and decreases the chance you'll run into a monster from someone else. If he's raising 30%, you'll get plenty of chances to go to war with him.

The second problem is the minraise. Yeah $6 is much better (although on this particular hand I just prefer calling, because of the first set of reasons...and you'll still have position on this guy, so you can still work him over pretty well w/o reraising pf.) It reminds me of the "dark-tunnel bluff" in HOH2, not really a value bet, not really a bluff, just a bet for the sake of betting. Even raising to $6 in this spot serves a purpose...it's a bluff to people still left to act and a value bet against the original raiser.

I would reraise this hand against this guy on the button or in the blinds if he's the only one in the pot when it gets to me there. My reasoning for not reraising here has nothing to do with UTG and everything to do with the 4 other players left to act.