Major Disagreement (PF) with "How Good is Your Limit Holdem"

[Faststan]

On Page 15 of Jacobs and Brier's book they say that if someone limps PF UTG and you are in middle position with:
1)87s
2)44
3)JTo
4)A3s
you are unjustified in calling because you will be paying double to contest a 3 handed pot.
Personally I sometimes call 87s,always call 44,never call JTo and always call A3s.Thoughts?

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
On Page 15 of Jacobs and Brier's book they say that if someone limps PF UTG and you are in middle position with:
1)87s
2)44
3)JTo
4)A3s
you are unjustified in calling because you will be paying double to contest a 3 handed pot.
Personally I sometimes call 87s,always call 44,never call JTo and always call A3s.Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Paying double? Do you think it might be a misprint? Did they mean early raiser and not limper?

I do like to have a second limper with a couple of these, like 44, so that the BB will still likely call if someone raises late. You can still get the 5 way action you want. These are not auto-folds but you really don't lose much by folding them. They are struggling to get into multi-way pots in order to be break even.

In a passive game where a good many flops are seen unraised I'd call with these. But if somebody will always jump on an opportuntity to raise vs what looks like a weak field I would fold these with only one limper. JTo would be my most likely fold out of the group in any type of game.

[CardSharpCook]

looks like a misprint.

[Ricks]

It says, "A likely scenario is that Mr. Normal will end up paying a double bet to contest a pot three-handed, where he doesn't have good odds for his drawing hand."

[spino1i]

I always call w/ 44. It has enough equity against random crap to be worth it.

[Hielko]

Usually an UTG limper has a decent hand.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
On Page 15 of Jacobs and Brier's book they say that if someone limps PF UTG and you are in middle position with:
1)87s
2)44
3)JTo
4)A3s
you are unjustified in calling because you will be paying double to contest a 3 handed pot.
Personally I sometimes call 87s,always call 44,never call JTo and always call A3s.Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

All of these hands should be folded in this situation in the typical online game.

In the typical live poker game, JTo is still a clear fold in my book. 87s and A3s are close. I usually fold them in that spot unless the players behind me are more loose/passive than usual. 44's is a call for me unless the game is tighter/more aggressive than usual which in that case is a fold.

Im convinced if you always folded all of these hands in that spot in a typical live game with no compelling reads you would be giving up almost nothing and lowering your variance significantly. You may even end up saving money by making these folds if youre playing against players your unfamiliar with or you dont play as well postflop relative to your opponents as you think you do.

Im also convinced that all these hands are auto-folds online in that spot without compelling reads, and I dont think its close.

Also, in some live games, the rake is so high that these hands should become auto-folds in this specific situation.

So IMO, Jacob's and Brier have given sound advice about this spot.

[ssmallz]

For the typical tight player, playing hands that are neutral ev can be very helpful for image reasons. When I'm limping into a lot of pots in slightly +EV or neutral EV situations, it makes me look like more of a gambler. Def helpful for getting paid off with my good hands

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
For the typical tight player, playing hands that are neutral ev can be very helpful for image reasons. When I'm limping into a lot of pots in slightly +EV or neutral EV situations, it makes me look like more of a gambler. Def helpful for getting paid off with my good hands

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your idea but I believe these limps will be -EV plays alot more often than most people think. The most important point of my post is that Jacob's advice is sound and defensible.

[RudeboyOi]

[ QUOTE ]

For the typical tight player, playing hands that are neutral ev can be very helpful for image reasons. When I'm limping into a lot of pots in slightly +EV or neutral EV situations, it makes me look like more of a gambler. Def helpful for getting paid off with my good hands


[/ QUOTE ]

if you have a TAGgy image, you pretty much turn you hand face up by limping here. its as if youre announcing i have a small pp, suited connectors, or Ax (weak kick) suited.

[ QUOTE ]

On Page 15 of Jacobs and Brier's book they say that if someone limps PF UTG and you are in middle position with:
1)87s
2)44
3)JTo
4)A3s
you are unjustified in calling because you will be paying double to contest a 3 handed pot.
Personally I sometimes call 87s,always call 44,never call JTo and always call A3s.Thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

online i agree youre not giving up much by folding here.
but live is an entirely different story.

the questions you should be
asking yourself in this spot are

can i outplay UTG postflop?
and
how often do the blinds defend?
and
how passive are the players behind me?
and
do they look like they like their hand?

if the blinds fold often to a raise
and everyone behind me look like
they dont want to get involved

then id be more compelled to raise with 44 and 87s here.
and toss the other two aways cause they are just trouble.

if it looks like they want to come along.
id limp with 44 and 87s and A3s.

JTo always fold in this spot.