Ruling Question??? 1-2 NL at FW...

[Hotrod0823]

Buddy was at a different table on this day and I heard about this hand after the fact so hopefully I have most of the details correct.

Typical 1/2 table with stacks from 60 all the way to 1200. Standard PFR from 10-25.

EP player with ~500 behind raises 15, 1 MP caller followed by a short stack push for 60.

LP with a big stack ~1200 calls 60 cold.

Action is back on EP and he pushes for 500.

The guy that called the 15 mucks. And mucks very sloppy and fouls the guy that was allin for 60 by mixing up their 4 cards.

The floor is called.

What should have the ruling been?

[signal]

I am not sure on this one.

Was the guy who was all in for 60 protecting his cards... putting something on top of them like a chip? Because if a chip was on top, the cards should be distinguishable, in the sense that everyone would know which cards were his. If that is the case I think the floor may rule that they will take back the obvious mucked cards and muck them properly... play would then continue as usual.

If the cards were not protected, and the cards were just jumbled all together so that they were completely indistinguishable, I don't know what would occur.

[Taso]

If it was indistinguishable, the floor might take the player who did it away from the table and ask him what he had, and sort the cards out that way. Or, if he's having a bad day, he'll just rule the hand dead :P

[mingorama]

Agree with Jake. If the player can properly relay what his cards were (which should be the case) to a floorperson holding all the cards, he'll get them back and play should continue.

[KipBond]

http://www.homepokertourney.com/robe...IRREGULARITIES

[ QUOTE ]
2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

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[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was indistinguishable, the floor might take the player who did it away from the table and ask him what he had, and sort the cards out that way. Or, if he's having a bad day, he'll just rule the hand dead :P

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imagine this scenario: mp caller has AT, short stack has A9. because they are friends and have worked out signals, MP tells the floor he had AA.

IMHO, his hand has to be dead to protect the integrity of the game.

[GTL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it was indistinguishable, the floor might take the player who did it away from the table and ask him what he had, and sort the cards out that way. Or, if he's having a bad day, he'll just rule the hand dead :P

[/ QUOTE ]

imagine this scenario: mp caller has AT, short stack has A9. because they are friends and have worked out signals, MP tells the floor he had AA.

IMHO, his hand has to be dead to protect the integrity of the game.

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yes, it is possible to cheat like this. i highly doubt that something like this was going on.

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
Buddy was at a different table on this day and I heard about this hand after the fact so hopefully I have most of the details correct.

Typical 1/2 table with stacks from 60 all the way to 1200. Standard PFR from 10-25.

EP player with ~500 behind raises 15, 1 MP caller followed by a short stack push for 60.

LP with a big stack ~1200 calls 60 cold.

Action is back on EP and he pushes for 500.

The guy that called the 15 mucks. And mucks very sloppy and fouls the guy that was allin for 60 by mixing up their 4 cards.

The floor is called.

What should have the ruling been?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this scenario that no one has commented on is that he was all in. Maybe the floor can rule his hand dead but it doesn't seem fair that he loses all his money. In my perfect world his hand would be dead but he'd get his chips back. If that angers the players in the hand so be it but everyone in the game has a duty not only to play their own hand but also to protect their card when they muck. If his cards were where they should be (next to him and not way out on the table), even if they weren't protected he should have a reasonable expectation that no one will throw their cards into his (which btw, may have happened even with a chip protector)

All these fouls, mix ups that I read here every day have me wondering where most of you play? I rarely see these types of things here in LA. Maybe once in a while an out of turn bet or check but mixing cards, etc, nope.

[rrb]

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And mucks very sloppy

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I think the guy who mucked his cards into someone else should get thrown out for the day.

My ruling -- Privately ask both players exactly what they had. If everything makes sense, both players cards, their pre flop action -- let it stand -- if somethings not right, the hand is dead.

Hey Hotrod, What was the FW ruling ?

[Matt G]

if the hand wasn't protected, its entirely reasonable for the floor to call the hand dead. If the floor feels so inclined, it would also be reasonable to ask the player his hand.