Dealer gives back "mucked" cards

[Wyman]

This is not deserving of its own thread, so I'll post here (100th post FTW).
Similar situation yesterday at Showboat. I'm involved in a decent-sized pot, in position, and villain checks to me on the river (which was a huge scare card). I bet (with what I assume is not the best hand). Villain pushes his cards toward the dealer with his index fingernail (best described as a "flick"), but doesn't pick them up and throw them into the muck. They made it almost to the board though (he was in the 5 seat). The dealer picks up the cards, and villain goes apesh*t, saying that he didn't fold. Dealer gives him his cards back and says "Well, be careful. If they hit the muck, they're dead." He then stares at me for like 2 minutes, and minraises.

Basically, my question is what's my line?

If I ask the dealer to call the floor right away (when the cards go back), this should give away that I don't want a call -- but I don't like to let action occur after an irregularity for fear of the "should have called me earlier" response.

The point isn't that this was necessarily an angle-shoot (this kid was too f'ing stupid for that), but that it opens up an angle to be shot, by setting a precedent. Of course, it always leaves a sour taste in your mouth to lose a pot that you were that close to winning (like the cards were in the dealer's hands being mucked). Anyway, just curious what you do in this situation.

As an epilogue, this kid went on a suckout tear. After his second rebuy, he built his stack up to over $600. Alas, before he could finish his 8th Corona, he was busto again. Good times at the Showboat.

[RR]

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If I ask the dealer to call the floor right away (when the cards go back), this should give away that I don't want a call -- but I don't like to let action occur after an irregularity for fear of the "should have called me earlier" response.


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You are unsure if it is right to ask the floor to declare someone's hand dead so you can win on a floor decision?

[Wyman]

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If I ask the dealer to call the floor right away (when the cards go back), this should give away that I don't want a call -- but I don't like to let action occur after an irregularity for fear of the "should have called me earlier" response.


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You are unsure if it is right to ask the floor to declare someone's hand dead so you can win on a floor decision?

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Actually yes.

What's the difference between this, say, and me throwing my cards toward the muck, and when the dealer retrives them, me saying "Wait, I don't want to fold. I want to raise."

The dealer would presumably tell me I was SOL, and not to fold my hand next time. IMO, the only difference between these two situations is the intent to fold. In my situation, I don't think villain intended to. On the other hand, how is the dealer supposed to know what the person intended other than by his actions? If the person flicks/throws/whatevers his cards toward the muck, what is the dealer supposed to think?

[If I cut a stack of chips out way in front of my cards, I can be held to that as a bet/call. I don't see how this, or any of a number of other similar situations, is much different.]

[RR]

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Actually yes.


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The policy of most rooms is the best hand wins the pot. Asking the floor to rule the best hand dead so you can win without the best hand is not an honorable way to play the game.

[Wyman]

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Actually yes.


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The policy of most rooms is the best hand wins the pot. Asking the floor to rule the best hand dead so you can win without the best hand is not an honorable way to play the game.

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Yes, and given that I didn't think that this kid meant to fold, I didn't call for the floor.

FWIW, I would never ask the floor to kill the best hand so that I could win. On the other hand, I will ask him to protect me and kill a FOLDED hand every day of the week. My original question was when it's appropriate to call for the floor in such a situation.

I agree that the best hand should win, but there are exceptions. A player tosses his cards to the dealer, sees that he made a flush on the river, and goes, "No, wait, I call." His having the best hand is irrelevant since he already folded!

[RR]

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I agree that the best hand should win, but there are exceptions. A player tosses his cards to the dealer, sees that he made a flush on the river, and goes, "No, wait, I call." His having the best hand is irrelevant since he already folded!



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He can probably still call IF nobody has reacted to his throwing away his cards if some how the dealer doesn't immediately muck them.

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On the other hand, I will ask him to protect me and kill a FOLDED hand every day of the week.

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If it is folded it is already gone (into the muck where it cannot be identified).

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My original question was when it's appropriate to call for the floor in such a situation.


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If a player gains information form throwing his cards forward and then tries to reclaim them I would ask for a decision.

[bernie]

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If a player gains information form throwing his cards forward and then tries to reclaim them I would ask for a decision.


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Now that we're back to his original question...

He was asking because of the possiblity of an angle shoot that could be shot by someone else if they notice this. He wasn't asking this so the hand could be killed an win on a technicallity.

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Basically, my question is what's my line?

If I ask the dealer to call the floor right away (when the cards go back), this should give away that I don't want a call -- but I don't like to let action occur after an irregularity for fear of the "should have called me earlier" response.

The point isn't that this was necessarily an angle-shoot (this kid was too f'ing stupid for that), but that it opens up an angle to be shot, by setting a precedent.

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To me, it could be a tough floor decision.

b

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain pushes his cards toward the dealer with his index fingernail (best described as a "flick"), but doesn't pick them up and throw them into the muck. They made it almost to the board though (he was in the 5 seat). The dealer picks up the cards, and villain goes apesh*t, saying that he didn't fold.

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Very very odd. What else could flicking the cards forward mean? If he'd immediately reached out and pulled 'em back himself, fine, maybe he had a spastic finger moment. But to flick 'em forward and leave 'em? Sure is quacking like a fold.

So you coulda called the floor. But yes, you have the very problem you mention that this is strongly suggesting you REALLY don't want a call and definitely don't want a raise. Get the wrong ruling and you're almost surely going to get at least called. Seems like the dealer shoulda taken it on himself to call the floor in this situation.

Now, you could still call the floor once the raise goes in. But waiting weakens your case to tissue paper strength. I'd be far less inclined as a floor to rule in your favor if I heard "he waited 2 minutes until after the raise went in to complain". But you could explain to the floor why you waited. And at this point, you have nothing to lose by calling for the floor.

But ultimately, I'd likely do what you did and just sit quiet and accept it. And perhaps ask the player after it's over WTF that finger flick thing was.