Whiffed AKs on wrong monotone flop

[Bond18]

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My default is to shove preflop here. It makes your hand pretty transparent, but so what.

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I must politely inform you that shoving over 20 BB's pre with AKss is very bad poker.

[kuro]

You're not shoving 20bb. The average stack yet to act is a little over 16bb and there is an ante.

[Bond18]

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You're not shoving 20bb. The average stack yet to act is a little over 16bb and there is an ante.

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Considering what their stacks are, your shoving a little under 20. Their stacks are lined up perfectly to jam on him, why take away their chance of thinking they have FE pre by pushing?

[woodguy]

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I must politely inform you that shoving over 20 BB's pre with AKss is very bad poker.

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Given some calling ranges, I would disagree with you here.

Mostly becuase of 77 guy would leads or c/r on a 9 high flop but folds PF.

Regards,
Woodguy

[mastr]

my line is still the best and guaranteed to win the most moneys

[Bond18]

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I must politely inform you that shoving over 20 BB's pre with AKss is very bad poker.

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Given some calling ranges, I would disagree with you here.

Mostly becuase of 77 guy would leads or c/r on a 9 high flop but folds PF.

Regards,
Woodguy

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Given stacks behind us, if 77 is playing its shoving 85%, calling 15%. I don't think theres much to be worried about in terms of being flat called OOP by these stacks that much.

[woodguy]

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Given stacks behind us, if 77 is playing its shoving 85%, calling 15%. I don't think theres much to be worried about in terms of being flat called OOP by these stacks that much.

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That is a fair statement.

AKss push is really close to being optimal thought, so close I can't hate it because some hands that are correct to call fold, which really, really helps against calling ranges.

Regards,
Woodguy

[wpr101]

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My default is to shove preflop here. It makes your hand pretty transparent, but so what.

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We are too deep for this; it's not close at all. At around 55,000 chips we could consider that.

[registrar]

Thanks for the replies. My thoughts:

1. I've got nothing agaisnt a huge overbet open push per se. I think it's too easy to become overly delicate and say this, that or the other is gross. However, in this instance, we are the final two tables and I am about sixth in chips. Over the last year, I think in these situations I've been looking to maintain rather than build my stack to get the final table. However, I think that is the wrong approach. I think our goal should be accumulation at this point, and to take advantage of everything else looking to maintain. So I think a standard raise/call is much better with a hand this strong and an image this lag. The blinds will shove any broadway ace, and wider, and anyone is shoving AQ and medium pockets. I like that.

2. BB has 20% of his stack invested in the pot and he's playing someone he knows is aggressive and who is willing to get his chips in. Depending on how sharp he is, and I suspect he was sharp enough, he should know that I am raising somewhat light into the smaller stacks behind (big stack having folded) and that I will fold to a raise or not (ie: I'm not going to have any further decisions pre-flop - I'll instacall or instafold). I think this narrows his range somewhat. He's either fully loaded (QQ+) or he's speculating. I could well be wrong here but I figured he's pushing AQ etc. I don't think he's flat calling 33, for example. Or pushing it.

3. If he's loaded and black, I think he open shoves this flop, rather than let me price myself in with a c-bet. So when he checks, he's giving up, or he has a high heart, or a set+. I think a reasonable % of the time, he also leads a complete whiff because he can't call/raise a c-bet and that gives him some chance to win a big pot.

4. So, when he checks, I figure that he's raising a lot here. So I don't like raising 15k and folding to a shove. Basically, any medium pocket pair and any four flush is going to CR me here and I just don't want to give him the chance to do this.

5. Checking back seems like a good option in this case. What do we do if he doesn't bet the turn? If the turn is a heart? If the turn is A or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? What about if he leads a turn heart?

6. I didn't check the flop because I'll try to win any pot I'm in, to a fault. Because I didn't want to bet/fold (because his check-shoving range is so wide), I elected to price myself in with a lead of 20k.

[Mr.Poker]

So that pretty much echoes my post, and the more I think about it, the more I hate c/betting this flop and folding....he can c/r here with such a wide range that it seems so gross.

I think if you decide to bet flop with intention of calling, then shoving is much better, purely due to FE and that you might fold out some better hands which c/r.

I checking > pushing > bet/calling > bet/folding

Altho, checking and pushing is proabably actually very close.

As for PF, I think pushing isnt bad for EV purposes but is terrible in the context of the wider game... you should be raising alot during this period, exploitability therefore of raising normal amounts later blah blah ....