dummy card, dummy call, or just plain dummy?

[soonerorlater]

2 similar hands from 2 live 15-30 games.

Hand #1

Weak passive raises UTG+1 (during the last hour he has flopped a set twice, turned a full house, and did not raise the big streets at all even though he had the chance), ABC player cold calls from middle position, folded to me in the SB and I call black 66, BB (unknown young asian guy, but he seems tight, so I'm totally confused) calls.

Flop 345 w/ 2 spades. Checked to UTG+1 who bets, ABC calls and I raise. BB comes alive and 3-bets, UTG+1 folds after about 2 minutes (QQ he said after the hand), ABC folds, and I call.

Turn is a 8d. Checked through.

River is a 6h, for a final board of 34568 no flush.

Check call???

Hand #2.

Loose passive limps UTG, LAG raises in the CO, folded to me in BB and I call black 44.

Flop 235 2 spades. UTG checks, LAG bets, I raise, UTG folds and LAG calls.

Turn is a Ks. I bet he calls.

River is a 8s for a final board of 2358K 4 spades.

Check call??

Also, does anybody take different lines somewhere else along the way?

[99Machine]

I think you played first hand fine on the flop and turn.

BB could have A6s (OESD) or a flush draw. A lot of tight post flop players will get agressive with OESD or flush draw on the flop, and him checking behind you does tell us that he probably has a draw.

If he knows what he's doing, he probably didn't put in 3 small bets with the lower straight draw (2X). MAYBE unless he has 22 or A2,which isn't likely because he'd cap and bet the turn with that.

I think his most likely hand is A6s, and you can bet this on the river. lol I suck so I don't fold this to a raise...what would you guys do?

Man, hand 2 is tough...I have no clue here. Um...looks like even just pair 4s might be good here. I'd check to induse a bluff and call with your 4 high flush draw.

[AragornX151]

Both are fine. Hand 1 is close between betting for value and check-calling. I'd lean slightly towards betting, as I'm feeling a hand like 56 given the action.

[cgrohman]

Bet the river in hand 1. What abotu that hand makes you think he has a straight?

If you are going to check/call in hand 2 might as well just bet.

[scoresman]

Hand 1 you have to bet the river.

Hand 2 is a little more complicated. LAG is going to play any A high hand this way. I would probably check to induce a bet. He will not call with a worse hand.

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river in hand 1. What abotu that hand makes you think he has a straight?

If you are going to check/call in hand 2 might as well just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed for hand 2. Maybe you fold out a mediocre flush that still beats you, I like bet/fold over check/call.

Hand 1 I'm still not decided on for the river.

[Justin A]

Hand 1 is closer to a CR than a check-call. I think betting is best though.

[ship it pls]

hand 1) pretty easy bet/fold imo,

i disagree with justin that c/r is closer than c/c, i think c/r may be a lot of fun in this spot but i dont think its profitable - i dont see a tight player paying a c/r with something we beat

hand 2) seems fine... like everyone said, c/c, i dont think b/f is reasonable since we dont fold any flush out against lag - i like to 3-bet the 4s preflop some of the time in this spot, especially if limper can fold pre or on flop

[soonerorlater]

Nothing makes me think he has a straight. My read was spade draw after he checked behind on the turn. He would continue to bet any made hand on the turn including top pair and up. I was hoping to induce a bluff, didn't want to payoff a raise if he did make a straight, and figured he might value bet any 2 pair hand after I check anyway.

Hand 2 is a bit different to me, considering how aggressive the other player is. I don't really know if he is the type of aggressive that will bluff raise the river, but I also don't want to give him a chance to. Maybe it's a hole in my game, but I prefer to get to showdown against lags in these types of spots.

[soonerorlater]

CR? I can't think of any hands that he would check behind on the turn with and payoff a cr on the river that I beat. Also, I'd be more inclined to lead the river if he bet the turn.