Learning to play O/8 and sucking at it

[Logun]

I'm just learning to play, so of course there is a "HE" feel to the way I played this.

But I'm just wondering about the thinking behind this play:
Both villains are not overly experience O8 players and I've seen the BB raise a pretty weak O8 hand out of the SB once preflop.

I understand not all of my outs are clean (they never are in Omaha), however looking at 16 outs (+1 BD str8 draw) and getting 2 callers, should I not be pumping this? I know I'm not drawing to the nut flush, but 2nd nut 3 way isn't bad is it?

I am prepared to dump my hand if the board pairs or to slow down if I lose a caller.

6 handed home game 1/2 limit O/8

UTG limps ($50)
2 fold
Hero (Btn) raises K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
1 fold
BB calls
UTG calls

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot 6.5SB)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG 3 bets, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls

turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (pot 9.25BB)
BB leads, UTG raises, Hero 3 bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero Calls

River Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (pot 21.25BB)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls

[neverforgetlol]

First even when it's double suited three high cards and a low card is not a good hand. The 5 really does nothing since you can't use it for low or high.

After that I would just call the flop. You want a lot of people in because even when you make your high hand there may be a low, and by keeping people around you make more money when you win the high half.

I also have no idea why you rr the turn.

[PNUTBRAND]

I would of rarely raise with this hand PF in the first place. Its really not that great and you have no low possiblility should it arive. Drawing to the 2nd nut flush here isn't horrible(in my mind) because the ace is on board. I don't understand why your jamming with this hand on any street. You haven't made a hand at all untill the river. With not knowing the opponents hands we don't know why there in. In split pot games with a low draw out on flop you don't want to lose players by raising them out, especially if you don't have a chance at a scoop or atleast three quarters. Once the low hits on turn you got to expect someone to of made one so theres no reason to raise here. Remember you still have no hand and if you do make it on the river you are only getting half. Raising on river isnt bad but you need to know your opponents. You may raise the BB out and you and UTG, if he made his low, will just be splitting what you put in. If you think your raise will [censored] out BB, but he will call one bet, you should only call. And who knows one UTG may 1/4 you if hes got KJ23 or such. Then all that money you put in on flop and turn you lose 75% of. Split pot games are totally different than holdem. Just cause you got the nut high or draw to it doesn't mean your gonna make money on the pot.

[Logun]

yah I was so use to hold'em I saw that flop and I was like 18 OUTS!! SWEET!!

but yah I see what you are saying now with regards to jamming especially on the turn.

One of my other friends also pointed out that if I don't have a low I am really only playing for 6% of the pot (since the low comes 40% of the time)

[Matt Ruff]

A different take, for what it's worth:

Preflop -- I agree this is a less-than-optimal hand, but if you're going to play it, a raise makes sense. You're hoping for a flop with lots of high cards, which will kill the postflop action from low draws, so you need to get their money now. If the flop completely misses you, you can still get away cheaply.

Flop -- By my count you have 16 outs: any K, Q, J, plus 7 additional spades. Most of them aren't nut but this is a shorthanded game, so nut hands aren't as important. If you make a flush it'll probably be good, and if you make a straight you could take the entire pot. You can also take the entire pot by getting low draws to fold. I think jamming this flop is fine.

Turn -- OK, now there's a low possible, and from the fact that it's bet and raised before it gets to you, you can safely assume you aren't going to scoop. But you've still got 16 outs for high, and no good reason to believe that you'll get quartered if you make it. Your opponents are acting like they've both already made their hands, which means either low hands or two pair/three-of-a-kind. Go ahead and three-bet.

River -- You have the nut high. Raise. If BB folds and UTG calls with the low, you'll lose a tiny bit of rake*, but if BB calls or reraises with a low, two pair, or three-of-a-kind, you'll make money. If you get quartered that's just tough luck.

*Edit: Forgot that it's a home game. So rake isn't even an issue.

[bbartlog]

Have to disagree with Matt.

- raising preflop (especially capping it as happened here) means that low hands are more likely to have odds to draw to a backdoor. There might be reasons to raise this preflop if you're going to play it (which I would only do from the blinds, or 3-handed), but the one you give seems wrong.
- on the flop, it's possible that jamming is correct. For example if we give UTG A246 and BB 2367 suited in spades, Hero does have 42% pot equity. Of course, if we give UTG A24K suited in spades to the K, our pot equity drops to 20%, or if we give him AA24 it's also down to the twenties - but overall I think jamming here is not terrible. Forget about fold equity though, you've bloated the pot too much.
- 3-betting the turn is awful. Your pot equity is down to 15% even if your outs are all clean. Every additional set of big bets that gets put in loses you over one SB on average.
- river raise is a no brainer, I think we can assume by this point that UTG has a set of aces.

[Matt Ruff]

[ QUOTE ]
raising preflop (especially capping it as happened here) means that low hands are more likely to have odds to draw to a backdoor. There might be reasons to raise this preflop if you're going to play it (which I would only do from the blinds, or 3-handed), but the one you give seems wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I typically play at low/microlimits, where almost any hand worth playing is worth raising, especially on the button. I can see how capping might seem excessive, unless you're used to opponents who limp-reraise 4799 in hopes of flopping quads.


[ QUOTE ]
on the flop, it's possible that jamming is correct. For example if we give UTG A246 and BB 2367 suited in spades, Hero does have 42% pot equity. Of course, if we give UTG A24K suited in spades to the K, our pot equity drops to 20%, or if we give him AA24

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, see, my first reaction reading this was, "Why are you crediting these guys with such great hands?"


[ QUOTE ]
3-betting the turn is awful. Your pot equity is down to 15% even if your outs are all clean. Every additional set of big bets that gets put in loses you over one SB on average.

[/ QUOTE ]

Twodimes.net is giving me pot equity as high as 20%, but point taken.

Still...BB leads turn after just calling on flop and preflop, and UTG raises anyway, so the action seems likely to be capped no matter what Hero does. So unless Hero plans to fold, why not three-bet to create the impression that Hero has a made hand already & increase the chances that he'll get (over)paid by a second-best high hand on the river? Note that I'd be much less inclined to suggest this if Hero had a weaker spade draw, but as it is the only outs I really don't like are the 6 and 7 of spades, which could easily give someone a boat.


[ QUOTE ]
river raise is a no brainer, I think we can assume by this point that UTG has a set of aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be thorough I should point out the double-brain-fart in my original response: even without a rake, Hero could potentially cost himself some money if his raise gets BB to fold a low that he would have called for one bet. But given BB's previous action this seems very unlikely.