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#131
04-26-2007, 10:21 AM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
Read the whole post pls. Obv this part was just a potential added bonus, and perhaps the least important part of my post. It was obviously an afterthought.
-Rizen [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] In the end I had AQo. Also FWIW, some set hands are in my range here, and I'm not sure if Bond is capable of getting away from this post flop if he pops the turn and I 3-bet all in, but calling may also potentially save him if he's beat. [/ QUOTE ] This is just poor thought process. I haven't read the hand in a while, but it's what, 150 bbs deep? In that case, we should be so much more worried about stacking TT-KK, since they make up the majority of your 3-bet range, than we are about getting stacked by a set. If I have AA, I am getting stacked by a set on certain boards if my opponent is aggro/capable of moves and competent postflop. The bottom line is, we need to worry more about extracting value from the hands we beat than minimizing losses. Now, if there is a line that does both at the same time, great. If not, I would utilize the distance between 9 and A, and use it to my advantage to milk my opponent for everything I could. [/ QUOTE ] 
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#132
04-26-2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
Whether or not I fold QQ depends largely on the line he takes post flop, same with JJ. To this point in my play with Bond in my experience he is incapable of making a flop bluff raise here and incapable of calling and making a turn bluff raise. This doesn't mean he can't do it, but my perception of him is that he would do it so infrequently it's not worth it to try and pick off. Obviously now that i've said this it changes. Actually for as much as he says it I don't think nath is capable of doing this to me as a pure bluff either. The only way bond busts me here is calling the flop and the turn, then shoving the river, and the board has to fade an Ace too most likely. Ansky perhaps, we haven't played enough together. Also, now that I've said this i'm sure I'll be getting bluffed there more frequently.
-Rizen [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] In the end, I think people vastly underestimate the holdings that I will re-raise with here against a button raiser (even a TAG one) pre-flop with. I think people vastly overestimate my ability to fold JJ/QQ to a 3 bet here pre-flop against a button raiser (I probably shouldn't say that though). [/ QUOTE ] I agree w/ all this, and if bond is adjusting well then you really shouldn't be playing overly tight vs a 4bet. But the fact is that most ppl, even good players, aren't really capable of 4betting light in tournaments. It's fine and all if ppl don't 4bet light, as long as a few conditions are met. 1) they hardly ever 4bet anyway, or 2) they are playing against players who the metagame implications are irellevent against. So Bond: if you 4bet here it better be because Rizen thinks you are capable of 4betting relatively light. Still, I doubt Rizen will suspect you are going to 4bet light the first hand of the tournament, and no offense (not really an insult anyway), but I wouldn't think you are capable of 4betting light in your spot. Whether that's a correct assumption or not I don't know. Regarding the flop, re:Rizen. Rizen if you are truly 3betting w/ a wide range preflop, then the only way you should be folding QQ on a 239 board or whatever it was is if once again, the villain is incapable of playing properly vs you. So if you know/suspect that a) bond is smart enough to open up post and pre flop, and do things like bluff raise then folding is simply awful w/ QQ. Still, as has already been said, i just don't think most ppl bluff raise here enough, especially in tournaments. If you were playing this hand vs me or nath, I think we have played enough that you would not be in a position where you would want to get away from QQ post flop here. But back to the hand itself, I am not sure what you mean when you say "On this flop if he raises me I think I get away from JJ/QQ a lot of times against this player." Is the plan to call and check/fold the turn, because you will have basically turned your hand face up and no one tries to bluff people off of big pairs here? I think if we were deeper thatd be alright, but the fact is if Bond raises to 1000 on the flop, and you call, there is 2400 in the pot and you have 1800 left on the turn. So i'm not sure what the plan would be there... calling flop and folding to a 75% psb seems ridiculous. But the point I am trying to make here is that if you are "capable" of folding QQ here post flop it's cause 1 of you is playing real bad in reraised pots. Though this a tournament hand, it definitely reminds me a lot of a 6max nl hand-- in that 3bets from the blinds are often relentless, and you are facing spots like these literally every 5 minutes. In a standard 5/10 or 10/20 game, there is NO way you are folding QQ, let alone JJ or TT (TT is where it gets close) vs regulars. However, given that it's a tournament and there is a different dynamic, and bond probably isnt in rage mode in 3bet pots, I think your thinking is reasonable. But going back to what I said before, bet/folding JJ+ here vs good aggro players is ridicously bad. AAAAAAAND finally bond: Obv if Rizen thinks you are so tight post flop then you should be bluff raising a lot here post flop, clearly then he will adjust and things change, but this isn't really the point of my next point. Metagame and inexploitability is in essence about perceptions. You can't act in a metagame vacuum in a spot like this, where you would raise AA on the flop because you "should" raise light if you perceive Rizen's post raise range to be nitty. That'd only be relevent if you knew Rizen's perceptions to be such that he would suspect you are raising light, but if he thinks you are gonna be a nit w/ post flop raises, you gotta just call. It's perfectly reasonable to just call w/ a lot of hands here, as long as it's balenced. ie, if you are calling w/ AA, you should mix in floats, sets, a9, etc. If you are raising a lot here, you should be raising most hands in your range some x% of the time, but also sometimes calling w/ everything. This means of course, that this isn't a RAISE or CALL situation in 100% of situations, especially if you expect to have a lot of confrontations in the future w/ Rizen. Playing tough means varying your play in a way that is attempting to be inexploitable, but also pouncing on other players exploitabilities-- even if that puts you in a situation where shania might get mad at you. In other words, act according to your image and your opponents perception of you to maximize profit, even if it means playing in an exploitable way here-- but DO NOT think it's ok to raise here if you aren't raising a relatively wide % of your post flop range. It seems a plague of 2+2 to look at every situation in a god damned vacuum, and ppl like 0evg0 get ulcers arguing about what is RIGHT AND WRONG, when in essence there isn't a 100% right or wrong answer. Ideally, there is only 1 right way to play a hand, but we are trying to maximize our G-bux (if you havent read jman's lil gbux article, read it), and this means playing vs someones range, not their exact hand. And obviously in return, people are going to play vs your range not your hand. The best players apply smaller and more accurate ranges, so it changes things, but the concept remains. Decisions 150bb deep like these aren't about "the right answer," but more about the right approach. [/ QUOTE ]
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#135
04-26-2007, 12:53 PM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
[ QUOTE ]
Bodogari is an overaggro typical tourney donk idiot who shouldn't even be there its truly sickening. [/ QUOTE ] OK, but I'm letting people know it shouldn't be a thought at all. Even if it's the least important thought, it's just a falsehood, and I thought the board should know that.
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#136
04-26-2007, 12:54 PM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Bodogari is an overaggro typical tourney donk idiot who shouldn't even be there its truly sickening. [/ QUOTE ] OK, but I'm letting people know it shouldn't be a thought at all. Even if it's the least important thought, it's just a falsehood, and I thought the board should know that. [/ QUOTE ] huh?
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#137
04-26-2007, 02:00 PM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
[ QUOTE ]
Read the whole post pls. Obv this part was just a potential added bonus, and perhaps the least important part of my post. It was obviously an afterthought. [/ QUOTE ] meant to quote that. wtf how did i do that.
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#140
04-26-2007, 04:16 PM
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Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Just looked at rizen's db he had 153 cashes in a row! Is that some kind of record?? [/ QUOTE ] That's 153 streaks of 1 cash... [/ QUOTE ] DUH! My bad, sorry thats the first experience I have had with the new db.
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