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#21
04-25-2007, 02:34 PM
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1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] i like the pf 3bet. if villain's range is {JJ+, AJs+, AK}, we are even money. [/ QUOTE ] even money? I make us a 55:45 dog. Am i wrong? [/ QUOTE ] 6 combos each of AA-JJ = 24 combos 16 combos of AK + 4 combos each of AQs, AJs = 24 combos that's what i meant. the real situation is more complicated because when we're ahead we're going to get outflopped ~1/3 of the time, and when we're behind we're way behind. still, i think folding is too weak and coldcalling is horrific. let's play poker. 
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#25
04-25-2007, 02:41 PM
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Re: 1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i like the pf 3bet. if villain's range is {JJ+, AJs+, AK}, we are even money. [/ QUOTE ] even money? I make us a 55:45 dog. Am i wrong? [/ QUOTE ] 6 combos each of AA-JJ = 24 combos 16 combos of AK + 4 combos each of AQs, AJs = 24 combos that's what i meant. the real situation is more complicated because when we're ahead we're going to get outflopped ~1/3 of the time, and when we're behind we're way behind. still, i think folding is too weak and coldcalling is horrific. let's play poker. [/ QUOTE ] How much of an edge do you think we have/need here? For folks starting out what you are advocating is taking a middle pp too far ui against a pre-flop raisor we have no good reads on.
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#26
04-25-2007, 03:07 PM
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Re: 1
kerowo,
of course you have seen me. you are looking at my feet right now. hey, buddy! *i'm* over *here*!! now that you're done eye-humping my best feature, let's continue. i've done my best to quantify our edge and it is admittedly pretty small. i do think the factors like dead money from blinds and our position make the situation more favorable for us, but i can't put a BB amount on those things. when a situation is close, i use the play that will make my hand easiest to play on later streets. 3betting here preflop lets me make near-perfect decisions postflop, and i am happy with that. fwiw, i do not think folding is much of a mistake. i agree that inexperienced players could take my plan here too far. boz and i have had a discussion about how 3betting a mid PP is not a good DEFAULT line, especially for noobs. however, to give you an idea of how close this all is, let's pretend OP had 99 in the posted hand. i guarantee that the cries of "fold! fold!" would be greatly reduced, perhaps even silenced. is there really a huge difference between 99 and 88? no. in fact, if you accept the ranges i suggested for Villain in this hand, there is zero difference between 99 and 88 [**]. anyway, i'm sort of rambling now. if i'm wrong about all this, someone please tell me, because i played a hand like this just yesterday (i 3bet 77 from the button after a fairly unknown EP raiser) and if i'm burning money i'd like to fix it. as always, HTH. [**] footnote for davidc and davidc-alikes: 99 has fewer straight outs than 88 because more of the cards that 99 needs to make a straight are in our opponent's range.
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#27
04-25-2007, 03:27 PM
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Re: 1
[ QUOTE ]
i agree that inexperienced players could take my plan here too far. boz and i have had a discussion about how 3betting a mid PP is not a good DEFAULT line, especially for noobs. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] <font color="blue">I raised the flop based on possiblity that villain might be donk betting whiffed overs</font> [/ QUOTE ] 'nuff said. But, no, not really. This all goes back to one of my mantras, "have a plan." When you 3-bet this preflop, you need to know what you're going to do on the flop if one or both of the blinds fold, if UTG caps it pf, and if it's checked/bet/bet and raised to you in all of those situations. You don't say, "Wow, he just donkbet, I bet he's got UI overs, I'm going to raise." Among other things, are you going to fold if he treys you? If you do raise, then you don't check through a blank on the turn when he checks to you. There is really only one good reason for having played this hand this way (QUIZ: what is it? HINT: it has to do with a "read"), and if that's what you're doing there shouldn't be any question about your river play (<- HINT 2).
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#28
04-25-2007, 03:35 PM
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Re: 88 FPS
bet turn
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls. Flop: (7.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls. Turn: (4.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls. River: (6.70 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls. Final Pot: 8.70 BB Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF"> Hero has Ts Td (one pair, tens). Button has Kh Ad (one pair, kings). Outcome: Button wins 8.70 BB. </font>
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#29
04-25-2007, 03:47 PM
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Re: 88 FPS
Seeing a picture of your feet doesn't count and would have ruined the line.
I think you've played a lot more hands than the OP and are going to have a better idea how to play it. I know one of the main things going on in this forum is trying to pass on experience to newbs but telling someone about a hand like this can't make up for hours at the table. While I wouldn't suggest starting players take this line I would certainly agree they should be thinking about it. Looking at the hand more I think the biggest mistake is the out of rythm (is that the way that goes?) play on the turn.
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#30
04-25-2007, 03:52 PM
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Re: 88 FPS
haven't read the responses yet, but 3-betting an utg's raise with 88 seems a bit risky, but with you on the button it could be okay. if you were like utg+1 i definitely wouldn't.
anyways as played you definitely have to bet the turn. now you're stuck playing guessing games on the river. against some players i would fold, against others who would put you on over overs once you check that turn and would value bet any pair, i would call. anyways fwiw, once you get donked on the flop i don't mind just calling down to be honest. raising sometimes invites disaster especially in aggressive games.
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