More guns the way to go? Some thoughs.

[BPA234]

If you could wave a magic wand and get rid of all the guns in the US, forever, I would support getting rid of the 2nd Amendment. Other than that, I am going to continue to support the right to bear arms.

[bkholdem]

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What is it about American firearm ownership that Europeans (and others) just can't stand?

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The part where +10,000 die each year.



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How many gun deaths are drug related? (that means these deaths are from prohibtion, NOT gun laws)



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Almost every European country prohibits the same drugs we do, and its not like no one is Europe uses drugs. So I don't see how you can say that our drug laws are responsible for the high murder rate.

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Here is from a National Report from Norway:

In October this year the Government proposed a new action plan agianst alcohol and drug problems,... The challenges and choices...

Conduct a policy that boht reduces alcohol and drug problems and is supported by the general population

strengthen the municipalities prevention efforst within local communities, by emphasising prevention and health promotion efforts directed towards children and youth in schools and educational extra curricular activities

ensures that abusers and their close family receive quality care and rehabilitative/follow-up such that the individula is able to live his/her life with dignity

http://www.sirus.no/cwobjekter%5Cnas...t_eng_2002.pdf


doesn't sound like they use the 'go chase them with guns and put them in jail' approach that we do. no wonder why there is a difference.

are you starting to get the picture yet?

[Misfire]

To the OP,

1) Cho wasn't using a gun in the act of committing a robbery.

2) You say criminals would not feel a need to use guns if police and/or citizens didn't also have guns, but Cho used a gun despite knowing his victims were unamred.

2) less likely =/= unlikely.

3) NewYork is more densely populated than Norway. To compare crime statistics is silly.

[pvn]

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Being so unwilling to even think about gun control leads to blind spots, and sometimes to some pretty wacky conclusions (ie "Let's arm professors!").

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Wow, I think we need to start some kind of a ticker, or counter for how many times you guys throw out the "ZOMG ARM EVERYONE TO THE TEETH" strawman.

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I read a thread the day after the shootings advocating exactly this.

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ONE poster, RacersEdge IIRC, who hardly ever posts in Politics, said something along these lines. Therefore, everyone who doesn't support total gun bans agrees with him.

Interestingly, JOHNNY CA$H couldn't be bothered to provide this needle in the haystack, but demands that others "share this large body" of studies showing guns reduce crime, when such studies have been linked about 200 times in the last week.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Didn't see this thread before now. Just a few comments wrt Norway to make sure you get the right impression:
-Legal weapons exist and quite a few have them, but it is mainly hunting weapons and they are illegal to carry/use when not underway to hunting. There are not many people who have guns that can be carried concealed, and no civilians are allowed to do so. Police is usually unarmed, but in the big cities they usually have guns somewhere within reach but locked up, i.e. in their car.
-Other weapon laws are also strict, you can't i.e carry a knife in the city centre.
-There is NOT a big black market, it is not easy for the criminals to manage to have guns since whereever a gun is found it is confiscated and the police is supervising i.e. gangs closely. Most criminals do not have guns.
-Drug users are not targeted much by police, however punishment towards drug smuggling and drug dealing is still very strict.
-The border to Russia is a much more dramatic border than the US-Mexico border wrt to difference in standard of living, level of crime etc., but it is very short and the traffic across is limited and heavily supervised due to the military importance.

[BCPVP]

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Especially since almost all western industrial countries but the US has stricter gun laws AND less murder rates. I think it's pretty obvious. It's like what more proof do you need? Just look to whatever country you want that has a good, strict gun-control.

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You need to do a lot of reading son. Wiki switzerland gun politics. Then read the samurai, the Mountie and the cowboy.

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Hey, maybe all those threads with me hawking that book paid off some... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Misfire]

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Just saying, "the criminals will always get guns" is defeatist and is no different than saying, "if a rapist wants to rape someone he'll find a way."

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I think the comparison works better saying "if a criminal wants to try to shoot someone he'll find a way" is no different than saying "if a rapist wants to try to rape someone he'll find a way."

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We still need to try and make it as difficult as possible.

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In both cases, more armed citizens would accomplish that goal.

[bkholdem]

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-Drug users are not targeted much by police, however punishment towards drug smuggling and drug use is still very strict.


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Can you share with us the 'strict punnishment' for drug users in Norway?

I just did a little googling (and posted a link below) about Norways approch to drugs. From the little I read their approach seems to very much focus on demand and using a humanistic treatment approach that is dignified.

In the us they hunt drug users and cage them like animals.

[She]

Link?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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"if a criminal wants to try to shoot someone he'll find a way"

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Btw, I think that statement is proven wrong in Norway, if you want to shoot somebody it is not easy to get hold of a gun. The level of ambition in Norway wrt to how good society should be is much higher than in the US, which makes it possible to put targets like "gun-free society", also we have a well-functioning government and police unlike the US. The mentality is try to get rid of all big problems, not just find a workaround (like armed citizens is). I don't know if strict gun control would be adviseable in the US before the other necessary parts are in place.