Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

[NewTeaBag]

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when will people understand that it's not cheating...

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Lying about your Golf Handicapp isn't cheating?

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in this context no.

Blair Rodman explained it better than I ever could so I'll quote him:


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Blair Rodman goes into great detail about what HE finds acceptable in hustling and cheating on a golf course. How does that carry over to everyone else?

Because he does it a lot doesn't make it right. Let's say I skip all the middle garbage (of a game with supposed friends wherein I steal (ahem, I mean hustle) their money) and just get straight to the point and pull out a gun and take their money. Let's say I do this for a livin and find it fair and reasonable and I do it at high stakes. Does that make my morale code applicable to everyone else who might attempt armed robbery?

Why do so many think that blatant theft cloaked in a very basic subterfuge of a "good hustle" is somehow morally acceptable when they find armed robbery reprehensible?

[167-169]

A sucker is born every minute. Pay the man his money.

I used to play pool and hustle a lot. If you see a mark, you take it down. If you don’t, another shark will. Happens every day in pool halls, Wall Street, casinos etc…

This was set up nicely and Ivey was going through the motions. Ram had no chance, he continued because of stupidity, mad tilt and stubbornness.

Ivey just showed that he’s a classless poker celebrity and really doesn’t care how he’s being portrayed. Hey, who gives a s.h.it “all about getting paid biatch!”

Ivey “the hustler” pwned Ram but may have burned a lot of bridges. It may cost him even more money down the road. If there was ever going to be another poker boom, his image has been tarnished. Some sponsors may pass on him, not like cares anyways.

Great hustlers get paid by suckers, without even letting them know they just got hustled.
Ivey is not great yet.

[daryn]

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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i liked this part. he comes up with the idea to use arbitrators, but has no intention of paying.. so what's the point of arbitration?

[NewTeaBag]

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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i liked this part. he comes up with the idea to use arbitrators, but has no intention of paying.. so what's the point of arbitration?

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My best guess is that you enter an arbitration much like other negotiations with a hard stance and eventually reach a compromise if possible.

Were you to enter a disputed arbitration would your opening position be "Yeah that guy is so right and I'm SO wrong"?

[Daddy Warbucks]

Or that he brought Barry Greenstein, a very good friend of phil's, and he was surprised he was on Phil's side.

[Rhand]

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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i liked this part. he comes up with the idea to use arbitrators, but has no intention of paying.. so what's the point of arbitration?

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Please learn to understand and comprehend the english language, nowhere in his post does he says he had no intention of paying, he just states that he thinks he shouldnt be paying.

Let me illustrate it for ya.

DARYN : Did you get a speeding ticket yesterday?
other guy : Yea, but I think it was giving to me wrongly and I shouldnt have to pay it
DARYN : WOW YOU ARENT GOING TO PAY, YOU GONNA GO TO JAIL IF YOU DONT
other guy: wow dude relax, I just said I shouldnt have to pay, not that I wont pay...

Kinda feel stupid that I as a dutch native speaker that I have to explain simple english comprehension to a probly US resident.

[Bonified]

In all the pages and pages of comment on this, from participants and others, I've read a lot of analogies. Every single one has been spurious and pointless. They just don't add anything. Can we stick to golf and what actually happened ?

[Orlando Salazar]

My silly take on Ram's comments:

"Phil openly agrees that before this match our relationship was one of friendship."
You had to ask him if you were friends?

"Phil also forgets to mention something …"
Why didn’t you ask?

"My second point is regarding raising the stakes. At the start I wanted to play $10,000 a hole and Phil wanted to play bigger. We agreed to play $20,000 "
Clearly, this highlights betting NEGOTIATION.

"When it looked like Mark had had enough I offered to take his side…"
Your partner gets crushed but you want to keep playing. You obviously though you weren’t being cheated at this point.

"it was never a free-roll for me, I was always paying if I lost. "
But you haven’t paid.

"I haven’t got a problem with losing money to anyone if they are playing well to their proper handicap."
So he’s playing fair in the first rounds but you are down due to …?

"on day two it turns out they weren’t playing well at all on the first day they were playing bad because now we were seeing gradual and major improvement. Basically we were seeing their true standard of play."
Why not make an adjustment then?

"True, maybe I could have stopped at this point but this is when I was getting very suspicious"
So you decided to freeroll?

"Anyway Mark couldn’t take it anymore and walked off after another couple of holes and I played on another 4 or 5."
(kept freerolling?)

"There is no exact point when I should or shouldn’t have stopped. I thought something was wrong but wasn’t sure about it until later. "
If the money is a big deal, then why not stop at first inkling?

"Seeing him play during that day there is no question that there was significant improvement but it’s difficult to say exactly how much. "
After getting crushed, I still didn’t know if I was being hustled?

"I therefore thought that once I have spoken to Phil I wouldn’t have to pay anything as there was no way that he couldn’t agree that the game should be completely void.
Then there was talk of finding the value of the missing shots in the handicap and taking it off the money that was won/lost but I didn’t agree that I should pay anything due to the fact that it was a total con."
If he overstates his handicap, it’s a PARTIAL con. Now you know his real handicap and can adjust.

"There is one other thing that I wanted to mention that was said in this meeting. When discussing about how many shots I should have received for the fact that I hadn’t been playing ..."
You mentioned before the match that you hadn’t been playing, if this was relevant, why not adjust shots before tee?

If you wanted this matter to remain private, do your part. This shows the logic of a freeroller. Well he's talking so I will. Well, he's cheating so I will.

[Phntm]

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I know it’s not for me to make a decision on this matter which is why I came up with the idea of arbitrators but whatever happens as far as I am concerned I shouldn’t have to pay a single dollar.

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I dont think it has anything to do with comprehension, its just obvious that Ram had no intention of paying. He has somehow convinced himself that he is not a welcher, and since he shouldn't have to pay, he won't. I think his reputation is tarnished much more that Phil's. Ram talks about how hustler's were dealt with in the old days, how does he think welcher's got dealt with. If it was me there would already be a hole in the desert with someone's name on it.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

with this logic, you guys should support grimstar for not going allin on that coin flip, because as far as he knew, his opponent wasn't only going to go allin unlesss he had the best hand.