$20 86s versus loose villain

Kazimyrch · #1 04-17-2007, 10:52 AM

Villain is extremely loose. I decided to invest a bit more than usual, because if I hit he would certainly pay me off. Maybe I should have shoved after the turn for not giving him odds to call with Adx

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t15/t30
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1265
UTG+1: t1750
MP1: t1600
CO: t3685
Button: t1830
SB: t1815
Hero: t1555

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30 (pot was t45), 2 folds, CO raises to t120, 2 folds, Hero calls t90 (pot was t195), UTG folds.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t285, 2 players)
Hero bets t60, CO raises to t150, Hero calls t90 (pot was t495).

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t585, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t240, Hero raises to t720, CO calls t480 (pot was t1545).

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t2025, 2 players)
Hero is all-in t565, CO folds.
Uncalled bets: t565 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t2025

BLAABAR · #2 04-17-2007, 11:01 AM

u dont want to play 86s OP(or anywhere else so early). just fold.

Kibby · #3 04-17-2007, 11:03 AM

fold PF but I think you know that. As played, NH

Kazimyrch · #4 04-17-2007, 11:07 AM

I know. I am still not very experienced, but it seems to me as if you are never allowed to play mediocre hands. I thought here my implied odds (when I hit i will be paid of) were not so bad. The guy was really an awful player. Is it really a big mistake?

Kibby · #5 04-17-2007, 11:19 AM

The problem here is that the pot represents such a large portion of your chip stack. Because of this, you need to have confidence you're going to be taking those chips a good portion of the time. With that hand, while you might get paid off when you hit your hand hard, you're probably not going to hit your hand as often as you need. Plus, its unlikely that you'll hit your hand on the flop. Most of the time to hit your hand you'll have to see a turn and a river which will cost you even more chips to get there.

Now, I can't be sure that against this particular opponent this is not profitable but, in general, you'll be well served by playing straight forward ABC poker. My guess is your hourly will go up as you focus on adding tables instead of making speculative plays like this.

Think about playing small pairs. during the first few levels limping with small pps is a strong play. To hit your trips, you're getting great implied odds. But, when the blinds become larger, you need to stop limping those pps because you're not getting as good implied odds.

A similar line of thinking should be used when evaluating this hand.

Kazimyrch · #6 04-17-2007, 11:34 AM

Thx a lot, great reply. I am making a decent profit, but not with straightforward poker and also on 2 or 3 tables at once. Might be a good idea to alter this.

Nikoms · #7 04-17-2007, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really a big mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to be mean or anything, but yes. I realize you're read on him may have been solid. But at every street you made what was, mathmatically speaking, a mistake - only being paid off because two bad decisions were met with some fairly strong luck.

In the way of example: Let's say he's PF raising with T7o (an awful hand) - he's still almost a 60/40 favorite against you. Now, on the flop, he raises again. (Incidentally, I don't hate your lead - although it's obvious based on the size that your on a FD). If he actually has caught a K, your still at least a 60/40 or worse underdog - and you're committing a ton of chips (stack%-wise) to see the turn. If the turn is not a diamond (which it won't be about 80% of the time) you've committed about 20% of your stack on a hand that should have been folded pre-flop.

In summary - I don't like the play on any street. Check/shove the turn. If he had Ad5x, Ad3x, or Kx he probably calls (forcing him to make a mistake, not you). Again, just trying to help, but playing weak hands - even against loose players, does not mean you'll win. Yes, implied odds are better, but will the times you flop a FD and actually make it (<6% if you put these two together) - seperately <12% to flop a FD or a made flush - then still only about 35% to make it if you do flop a FD) - make up for all the money you've poured in on hands you didn't make?

Again, just trying to help.

Nikoms · #8 04-17-2007, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Think about playing small pairs. during the first few levels limping with small pps is a strong play. To hit your trips, you're getting great implied odds. But, when the blinds become larger, you need to stop limping those pps because you're not getting as good implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. Question - to reverse the issue: Say it's early and we're holding a decent hand in LP - maybe JJ+ or AQ or AK. Would you raise any harder PF to stop people from doing exactly what you suggest? Or just put in a standard raise? Just curious your thoughts.

Kazimyrch · #9 04-17-2007, 11:53 AM

No problem at all. With these posts I get a lot further. If play is bad, it's bad. It's not the case that I play these hands regularly, but from time to time I will. Varying your play as Harrington puts it numerous times. But I realise that STT is an awful lot different from MTT and that play has to be more solid.

Kazimyrch · #10 04-17-2007, 12:00 PM

I would just standard raise JJ. Objectively it doesn't make sense to raise harder, because you want lower pairs to call. It may be difficult to play post flop, but what if you get reraised preflop? I don't want to commit a lot of chips with JJ.