Ivey playing golf

[barryg1]

jayhawks,

Maybe you're not a golfer. If someone plays 9 holes and walks off the course, it may be that they had a bad match and were hustled. We all get into bad matches from time to time, and when we lose we try to get an adjustment to the handicap after 9 or 18 holes.

The disparaging rumor I was objecting to, was that Ram and Mark had a bad match and lost a bunch of money and walked off the course after nine holes.

The truth is they beat Phil five straight times at the same match, with Phil practicing to try to get better so he could win. Eventually, he got to where he was a solid favorite in the match and they kept playing for 72 holes, and they got scorched. Phil actually didn't play that well, but he made many key putts, and they putted badly.

They claim the problem is that they played so badly, they blamed themselves for losing while it was going on. But after talking with other people, they realized Phil had improved to the point that they couldn't win anyway.

They claim their bad play and the fact that only four months earlier they had easily won at this same match, obscurred from them the fact that they should have been asking for an adjustment.

I have talked with Mark and Ram, and I know Phil real well. I think Phil had become a clear favorite, and I actually believe their contention about the way it happened made it hard to know they had such a bad match.

Phil didn't do any kind of hustling like dumping to keep the match close or anything. He tried to win every hole he could. They played as badly as they could under the mounting pressure and the growing debt.

So I expect none of you to try to getter better at poker, because if you win, someone may threaten that you got better without them knowing it, so you do not deserve to be paid!


Barry

[oldlove]

Barry:

Will Phil ever get his money from Ram?

[TNUC]

cheers for clearing that up barry , looks like ram and co should have said something during the game, but as they didnt they should probaly just pay up or reach a deal with ivey

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People on these forums talking like they know things they don't? No freaking way. I just can't believe something like that.

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I just mean that it makes more sense to say you heard or read something. But people seem to want to get credit for being the one who knows the facts firsthand, when they don't know it, and they end up spreading damaging rumors.

Barry

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I was being sarcastic and agreeing with you Barry.

[Phntm]

So good to hear it from a real gambler, so many of these people on this board had already decided for themselves without knowing the situation. Even Blair Rodman chimed in about golf gambling, and still everyone has to add their two cents. Daniel does his best to be diplomatic yet still make a point, and still, everyone thinks Phil has done something wrong. Now we have it straight, from someone who we can all agree, is a gambler's gambler, been through it and seen it all, say it straight up, those two need to pay up. Phil is obviously a driven individual, even more obvious is that he is a serious gambler. A serious gambler's word is his bond, welching on bets is something that an honorable person would never do. I am sure that those two are finished in terms of being respected by their peers. Shame on those of you who "think" that Phil cheated. It has been said time and time again that the negotiation is the core of golf gambling, it seems those two lost at that phase of the process, but even moreso at putting when it counts. Man up and pay your debts, try and salvage both your image and honor.

[teddyFBI]

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I am sure than none of the high-limit live players has used any tracking software. They also don't read poker books and put little stock in hand values. Betting patterns and tells (in live games) are what these people (and myself) use for the most part.

It's a very different type of playing than you read about on 2+2. If you looked at the hands we play, you would swear we couldn't win. But inexperienced players give away their hands enough that they can be manipulated in the betting.
Barry

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This is the most interesting part of this thread. Barry, I've heard several high-limit guys say this before, and I always dismissed it as a poor excuse for their laziness or other unwillingness to work on their game to the extent they should. e.g. it's easy to say "hey, I read people and betting patterns really well" -- MUCH easier, at least, than putting in long hours deconstructing one's game (through the use of tracking tools, for example).

While acknowledging that they're probably big winners anyway, don't you think the live high-stakes guys you're referencing are leaving a ton of $ "on the table" by not availing themselves of all the great educational tools most 2p2ers have found worthwhile?

Follow up Q: do you believe that high-limit live players then get crushed online, then, where tracking tools have become 'par for the course'?

[barryg1]

I asked my nephew to set up pokertracker for me, but he hasn't shown me how to use it, and it wasn't obvious (and I was a computer programmer). I didn't care so much for statistics about raising frequencies, I just wanted to know who the losers were. So, when I see someone sitting online, I call my nephew up and ask him if they are good or not.

I wonder how valuable these things are for me. Multiple people play most of the unnamed big accounts. Tuan Le told me people fight over playing his account, because they know they will get paid off. I have never played as "Crazy Zachary" although I know four people who have, yet on the internet it is "known" to be my account.

I don't see that sbrugby with software tools has an edge over Phil Ivey without.

There is an adjustment required to be a top online player for someone (like myself) who has always played by thinking about the other person's cards.

If Internet poker really goes down, I expect some of the online phenoms will get hurt against the top live players, because they will be playing their value too much and will be giving out information. It would be fun to play with some of them in the big game at the Bellagio, but most of them can only play hold'em.

Barry

[NNNNOOOOONAN]

[censored] epic.

i wonder if barry knows how many countless posts have been made about these topics. finally, answers.

[Orlando Salazar]

Barry, according to my DB, sbrugby is up on phil over a good number of hands.

[SukitTrebek]

Barry,

Much of the previous discussion of the match centered around the fact that Ivey told Ram and Marc that Eric Lindgren still gives him 10 strokes which was later found out to be completely untrue. This was phrased as either "blatant cheating" or "good gambling negotiation" depending on who was posting.

In your version, it seems that this "lie/negotiation" simply didn't happen? So, before the most recent match was there a discussion about his improvement but Phil didn't outright lie? Or there wasn't any discussion at all and Ram and Mark made the mistake of assuming the match was still even?