Don Imus

[EricOF]

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JohnKilduff,

I agree, for the most part. However, in most of his commentary about black violence, HeavilyArmed insinuates (with a rather heavy hand) that its main causes are endogenous - that is, something about black people, or something about their culture unique and specific to blacks causes increased rates of crime. I think before forming such conclusions it would be helpful, if not outright mandatory to identify all pertinent/possible exogeneous causes, such as the lingering effects of civil right struggle and blacks' low socio-economic status. HA mainly aims to recast Social Darwinism in a different light, IMO.

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single parent homes my friend.

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Even if this is correct, the only thing it accomplishes is changing the question to instead be about the causes behind why such a large proportion of black children is growing up in single-parent homes.

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After we look at what percentage of black children in africa are growing up in single parent homes and compare that to the percent in america that are doing so.

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I believe in South Africa the black illegitimacy rates are at about 60%. You can look at Caribbean nations while you're at it. You'll find some pretty consistent trends.

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I have no idea what the trends are but I am curious as to what the overall % is for blacks in all of africa, not select sections.

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Knock yourself out. SA is by far the most developed in that area though so I'm not sure what you think you'll find. Of course, the very idea of what a strong family is is quite different in some of these nations. I suspect if you were to go there and use whatever their equivalent of "illegitimacy" is there in a negative sense, some of them might look at you strangely.

[EricOF]

Obviously environment plays its role. Only a fool would deny it. However, I find it rather immature of us that if someone suggests even an interplay between genes and environment, they are generally vilified for it. The only "politically correct" take on any of this is that every group is alike is every inherent respect and that only our experiences shape us. Tabula Rasa is appealing, but I don't see much evidence for it.

[bkholdem]

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I doubt we can get any reliable data from the governments currently in power. How also do you reconcile the data with those gathered from the West? Is a country with a 30 year civil war's crime rate directly comparable to that of the fairly genteel US? Or maybe a different story is to be told in comparing blacks in Africa by ethnic group rather than the black-white distinction here? Just a few things to consider.

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I don't have an agenda I am trying to prove, so I don't feel the need to reconsile anything. People are pointing out the higher level of violence by blacks than by whites in america. I pointed out that single parent homes are a factor. Someone said it closes the gap but does not eliminate it and someone (maybe the same person) said well you still need to explain why blacks have a higher rate of single parent homes. I am saying that we have incomplete data and in order to move forward along this line of thought want to know what the rate of single parent homes is across africa. If they they differ then that bears looking into, does it not?

YOu seem to be the one with an agenda, not me.

[bkholdem]

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Obviously environment plays its role. Only a fool would deny it. However, I find it rather immature of us that if someone suggests even an interplay between genes and environment, they are generally vilified for it. The only "politically correct" take on any of this is that every group is alike is every inherent respect and that only our experiences shape us. Tabula Rasa is appealing, but I don't see much evidence for it.

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I agree that it is immature to vilify someone for asserting there may be genetic differences between blacks and whites, or blacks and whoever, or whites and whoever.

Lets suppose you get your way (lol) and it is demonstrated beyond reasoable doubt that blacks have something genetic that makes them violent. What do you propose we do?

[bkholdem]

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Personal Victimization Rates By Type of Crime and by Race and Ethnicity, 2000 (per 1000 people, white then African American)

Crimes of Violence 27.1 35.3
Rape 1.1 1.2
Robbery 2.7 7.2
Assault 23.3 26.9
Crimes of Theft 1.1 1.9
Total 28.2 37.2


Most violent crime is committed intraracially, so blacks are predominantly committing crimes against one another at a higher rate. Blacks are also arrested at a higher rate for violent crime, including those they are innocent of. Moreover, those who are victimized by blacks are more likely to report than those victimized by whites. Even in light of the above chart, the picture one paints with statistics has to be considered very carefully. (e.g., it's not the black youths killing white grannies shtick predominant in the media)

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Here's another study of violent behavior:

http://www.rand.org/news/Press/566-572.ellickson.pdf

They looked at school children in california.

Analyses of predictors of violence among high school seniors and dropouts show that early deviant behavior, poor grades, weak elementary school bonds, and pro-drug middle school enviornments forsterd violent behavior several years later...
...In addition, adolescents who attended several elementary schools, and who thus may not have developed strong bods at any of them, were more likely to engage in overall and relational violence as older teenagers. Similarly, "bad" school enviornments- specifically, those middle schools characterized by comparatively high levels of cigarette and marijuana use-also promoted subsequent violence.
... Background characteristics that predicted subsequent violence included 2 protective factors, being White and being female. Being white lowered the probability of engaging in predatory (but not relational) violence. However, identification with other ratcial/ethnic groups had no impact on violence once we controlled for early behavioral problems and enviornmental influences.
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And since males engage in more violence that females, maybe us males are 'inferior'.

[HeavilyArmed]

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So by continuing with this line of reasoning, all groups in America which are equally disadvantaged economically should be equally represented in crime. Is that the case?

It seems clear that economic factors play a significant role, but that does not suggest that culture plays no role.



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Jump right out and state it honestly: Controling for income, blacks are very much more likely to be violent criminals and somewhat more likely to be property criminals.

It's not even close.

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Try controlling for single parent homes and watch how the stats change.

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Agreed. The gap will close but it won't go away.

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How significant is 'the gap' when you control for both income and single parent homes?

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More research than I'm willing to do.

I'd guess that blacks would go from six times as likely to commit violent crime as whites to twice as likely when you control for income and parental status.

No group I know of would fund such research since there's no upside for the PC crowd, only uncomfortable recriminations.

[HeavilyArmed]

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...Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.


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In poker we call this a tell.

Research the issue on your own if you seek any truth. Don't trust me, don't trust you professors.

[HeavilyArmed]

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here is some more data for you

children from fatherless homes are:


5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of high school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution
20 times more likely to end up in prison.


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I call BS on this data set. The books have been cooked.

[HeavilyArmed]

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And of course, we never seem much inclined to examine the condition of sub-Saharan Africa itself as a reference point. The particular backwardness and underdevelopment of that area of the world rather predated Europe's interest in the slave trade.


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It's quite sad that the birthplace of H. Sapiens is now running in last place by so many metrics.

[Kaj]

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But as you probably know you're more likely to run into "free speech" or "just change the radio station" or "just monitor what your kids listen to" arguments here. Be interesting to see if you don't.

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Why is it so hard to understand that CBS, a company whose reputation and fortune is basically built on appearing as a mainstream news and entertainment outlet to mom-and-pop America, has different standards than say Capitol Records, whose reputation and fortune is built on entertainment provided by a diverse set of artists with lifestyles and opinions quite often outside the fringe of society's mainstream standards.



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This is circular. Capitol records produces similar or far worse content because it's in the business of producing similar or far worse content. I imagine CBS could have gotten around the criticism by saying "we'd like to 'diversify' the entertainment we offer so not only does Imus stay, but we'd like to give C Murder a new sitcom.." and then we'd all just shrug our shoulders because hey, their business model changed.

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That's a ridiculous argument.