Play smooth nine or draw to the seven?

[Deveroast78]

On my usual poker site I find players staying in with tens and jacks or drawing up to two cards going to the river and frequently can win at showdown with even a rough eight, but get frustrated often because the fish just keep drawing on every street and by the time the hand is over, they're showing a nine or better too often for me to make a serious profit. My question, specifically, for 2-7 Triple Draw players out there is this: Do you think with a four-card nine (say, 9, 7, 4, 2, X) I should draw two to the seven or one to the nine, going into the river? Should my decision differ depending on how smooth my draw is? I know I should draw from the bottom up but I have trouble laying down a hand like 9, 7, 4, 3, 2 and can't get a good EV to tailor what kind of hand I should be showing down with. I figure the average best hand to be approximately a smooth ten 3-way and a jack heads-up, but a lot of times the fish stay in to the showdown and end up sucking out with an eight, usually when I've already invested too much to NOT call the river bet. Any suggestions?

[Lottery Larry]

A 9-7 is not a smooth 9. That said, I'd always prefer drawing 1 card to two cards against people drawing two cards from tens and Jacks.

You should be raising those 2-drawing donkeys before the river, depending on how rough the hands they are drawing to are. It also depends what cards you've been throwing away.

[MarkGritter]

On the last draw, you probably want to keep the 9 unless you know somebody else is pat. (If they are often pat with T's and J's you should probably keep your 9 as well!) In most cases drawing will lower your EV. You usually shouldn't call a bet to draw at 742xx or even 9742x, though.

You can examine the probability of winning with last-round draws using the calculator at http://twodimes.net/poker in 2-7 mode.

For example, in a four-way pot with 97542, J8632, A7642, and K8543, standing pat with the 9 earns you 0.577 of the pot:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2565653

while drawing earns you only 0.306:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2565654

Drawing is a huge mistake.

If a player is drawing two, it is even worse to break the 9. A draw like 732KK is 9:1 against winning if you are pat (heads-up) but just 2:1 if you draw one.

[InWithTheBest]

[ QUOTE ]
On my usual poker site I find players staying in with tens and jacks or drawing up to two cards going to the river.... but a lot of times the fish stay in to the showdown and end up sucking out with an eight, usually when I've already invested too much to NOT call the river bet. Any suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to be a smartass but if your having a lot of trouble beating these players you may need to look harder to figure out who the fish really is.

[Deveroast78]

You feel a good player should still be drawing two to a three-card hand on the final draw? I try to never be drawing more cards than my opponent, usually by the end of the second draw my hand is made already or I've folded. If not, I'm only drawing one to a hand like 9-7-2-3-X, hence this question.

[HOWMANY]

[ QUOTE ]
You feel a good player should still be drawing two to a three-card hand on the final draw? I try to never be drawing more cards than my opponent, usually by the end of the second draw my hand is made already or I've folded. If not, I'm only drawing one to a hand like 9-7-2-3-X, hence this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds like you are not good at 2-7. Fortunately it also sounds like you are probably pretty smart so go get Super System 2, read Negreanu's section on TD and profit.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
On the last draw, you probably want to keep the 9 unless you know somebody else is pat. (If they are often pat with T's and J's you should probably keep your 9 as well!) In most cases drawing will lower your EV. You usually shouldn't call a bet to draw at 742xx or even 9742x, though.
If a player is drawing two, it is even worse to break the 9. A draw like 732KK is 9:1 against winning if you are pat (heads-up) but just 2:1 if you draw one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reread the post- he's not talking about breaking a pat 9 to draw, I don't believe. I think he meant to say X9742, rather than the way he described it.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You feel a good player should still be drawing two to a three-card hand on the final draw? I try to never be drawing more cards than my opponent, usually by the end of the second draw my hand is made already or I've folded. If not, I'm only drawing one to a hand like 9-7-2-3-X, hence this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds like you are not good at 2-7. Fortunately it also sounds like you are probably pretty smart so go get Super System 2, read Negreanu's section on TD and profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're commenting on the "never draw 2 to the river" portion, and not the "avoid drawing more cards than my opponent" comment?

[DeathDonkey]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You feel a good player should still be drawing two to a three-card hand on the final draw? I try to never be drawing more cards than my opponent, usually by the end of the second draw my hand is made already or I've folded. If not, I'm only drawing one to a hand like 9-7-2-3-X, hence this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds like you are not good at 2-7. Fortunately it also sounds like you are probably pretty smart so go get Super System 2, read Negreanu's section on TD and profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you're commenting on the "never draw 2 to the river" portion, and not the "avoid drawing more cards than my opponent" comment?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is pretty telling:

[ QUOTE ]
usually by the end of the second draw my hand is made already or I've folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

-DeathDonkey

[Deveroast78]

Yes, exactly. For instance, K-9-7-4-2, discard the King or both King and Nine on the last draw. At any rate, I do have SS2, just haven't read it in a while, I've been reading and re-reading TOP lately and to be honest I don't have much table experience at TD, guess I need to just play more and get a better feel for what my opponents are doing. I will also reread the TD chapter in SS2. Thank you all for the input.