PLEASE PROTECT "YOUR " POT

[Sarge85]

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I might be going against consensus here, but I hate it.

By c/r-ing you force your opponents to play correctly. You don't want them to fold a 3 outer really. You'd rather have them call incorrectly.

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BEWARE


I don't know how to express it in math terms or as eloquent as others.

Against one person sure let them call incorrectly - but the more people in the pot - the more collective outs against you - so while one person may have a 3-4 outer - 3 people aagainst you can have collectively 9-12 outs.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[HoneyBadger]

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Against one person sure let them call incorrectly - but the more people in the pot - the more collective outs against you - so while one person may have a 3-4 outer - 3 people aagainst you can have collectively 9-12 outs.


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Yeah, that's true. But they're also paying 3 times as much. So while you might lose the pot more often, your average winnings will be higher (for a moment ignoring implied odds etc., simply going by "more people have more outs"). So if every single person is incorrect in calling, to the best of my knowledge, they can never be correct in calling as a group. In fact, as a group the 'call' might be worse as they might very hold eachother's outs.

Anyway, I'm not saying you don't want to check raise, but the risk is not worth it imo. Even if they call correctly on a 5 outer or something, it is still you who is making money. On the other hand in the case it does get checked around, clearly not a purely theoretical occurence, they all gain and you lose. (this is precisely a reason to raise from the CO with a speculative hand, as you will often get a free card. I wouldn't "bet" on CO betting.)

[nutfarmer]

Bet the flop. Worse hands may call and you want to give them an opportunity to make a mistake. The pre-flop raiser is the one most likely to bet and by check-raising you'll be facing the field with calling two cold. Something they're not likely to do. Also, by checking the flop you deny the pre-flop raiser the chance to raise which you would then be able to re-raise and, again, face the field with calling two cold.

[bernie]

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You don't want them to fold a 3 outer really. You'd rather have them call incorrectly.

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With implieds, the 3 outer has odds to call.

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Legitimate draws still call anyway

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There are no real draws on this board.

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AQ is not a hand that needs much "protection", if it hits it can usually only be beaten by a 3-5 outer.

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Depends on the board, doesn't it?

b

[MickeyWins]

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Against one person sure let them call incorrectly - but the more people in the pot - the more collective outs against you - so while one person may have a 3-4 outer - 3 people aagainst you can have collectively 9-12 outs.


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Yeah, that's true. But they're also paying 3 times as much. So while you might lose the pot more often, your average winnings will be higher (for a moment ignoring implied odds etc., simply going by "more people have more outs"). So if every single person is incorrect in calling, to the best of my knowledge, they can never be correct in calling as a group. In fact, as a group the 'call' might be worse as they might very hold eachother's outs.

Anyway, I'm not saying you don't want to check raise, but the risk is not worth it imo. Even if they call correctly on a 5 outer or something, it is still you who is making money. On the other hand in the case it does get checked around, clearly not a purely theoretical occurence, they all gain and you lose. (this is precisely a reason to raise from the CO with a speculative hand, as you will often get a free card. I wouldn't "bet" on CO betting.)

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OK....The more I think about it...the more I agree...the hand does not need much "protection".....the CO can not be trusted to bet (in fact the CO did check....and I lost to pocket 44 when a 4 hit turn...I know..."dont be a results player..lol)
Just bet the hand. someone with a weaker ace may call you down....and if the CO has AK, he will let you know.
"Protecting a hand....also means...making sure "THE FIELD DOES NOT GET A FREE CARD".....as a group they may have a lot of outs.

[bernie]

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Against one person sure let them call incorrectly - but the more people in the pot - the more collective outs against you - so while one person may have a 3-4 outer - 3 people aagainst you can have collectively 9-12 outs.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's true. But they're also paying 3 times as much. So while you might lose the pot more often, your average winnings will be higher (for a moment ignoring implied odds etc., simply going by "more people have more outs"). So if every single person is incorrect in calling, to the best of my knowledge, they can never be correct in calling as a group. In fact, as a group the 'call' might be worse as they might very hold eachother's outs.

Anyway, I'm not saying you don't want to check raise, but the risk is not worth it imo. Even if they call correctly on a 5 outer or something, it is still you who is making money. On the other hand in the case it does get checked around, clearly not a purely theoretical occurence, they all gain and you lose. (this is precisely a reason to raise from the CO with a speculative hand, as you will often get a free card. I wouldn't "bet" on CO betting.)

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OK....The more I think about it...the more I agree...the hand does not need much "protection".....the CO can not be trusted to bet (in fact the CO did check....and I lost to pocket 44 when a 4 hit turn...I know..."dont be a results player..lol)
Just bet the hand. someone with a weaker ace may call you down....and if the CO has AK, he will let you know.
"Protecting a hand....also means...making sure "THE FIELD DOES NOT GET A FREE CARD".....as a group they may have a lot of outs.

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The 44 may have called your flop bet anyways.

b

[HoneyBadger]

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The 44 may have called your flop bet anyways.

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As usual I wasn't very clear in explaining what I meant... hehe.

Yes, he might have called anyway. The thing is you do want to check raise and 'protect' your hand, but it might not work as expected. While it's better to face them with 2 cold, it's also reasonable to simply face them with 1. But two is better. However, the times it is checked, they all get it for free which is quite bad. So intuitively I think with the combined chances of either "somewhat better or horrible" vs "somewhat worse", the latter is better overall.

[James.]

if CO is aggro i would 3bet pf. this has alot to do with how we view CO, how CO views us and how CO views(and thinks we view)the limpers. certain scenarios lend to a call or fold and certain scenarios lend to 3betting. given you think he's aggro enough to bet a worse ace/hand on that flop i would tend to believe we are ahead pf as well and go ahead and 3bet.

as far as the actual play on the flop, with your PF coldcall going for the c/r of an aggressive, late position player seems automatic in alot of the games i play. betting out fine as well, but if you think CO will autobet most flops i would c/r.

DavidC's question about KK on that flop:

4 handed, i think checking the flop is fine. in some scenarios betting the flop and checking the turn UI might have merit.

[Sarge85]

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Against one person sure let them call incorrectly - but the more people in the pot - the more collective outs against you - so while one person may have a 3-4 outer - 3 people aagainst you can have collectively 9-12 outs.


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Yeah, that's true. But they're also paying 3 times as much.

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True True, but as the pot gets bigger, I care less about giving/taking odds, and more about taking the pot down.

It's not like were contiplating C/Ring Quads or something where we can lolly gag around - we have top pair -- that's it.

I'm fine going for a CR - shutting out the field, and take my Top Pair second kicker HU against a person described to have similar raising standards to mine.

The fact that it got Checked Through in this instance is inconsequital. Sometimes you make a play, and it doesn't always go the way you want. The right play was a CR here.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[MickeyWins]

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The 44 may have called your flop bet anyways.

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As usual I wasn't very clear in explaining what I meant... hehe.

Yes, he might have called anyway. The thing is you do want to check raise and 'protect' your hand, but it might not work as expected. While it's better to face them with 2 cold, it's also reasonable to simply face them with 1. But two is better. However, the times it is checked, they all get it for free which is quite bad. So intuitively I think with the combined chances of either "somewhat better or horrible" vs "somewhat worse", the latter is better overall.

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HUH??? ..lol...I understand but I can see that some poker questions can get very complex, very fast. It funny how complicated poker is...and how fast we play it.
I am thinking NOW (lol) NOT 3 BETTING PREFLOP IS BIG MISTAKE HERE... a 3 bet solves all my post flop problems. If I miss, I can either drive at the pot vs a small field. or if I hit it...I just bet out and hope no one runs me down...as the pot is now so big all draws will be calling anyway. either way its way simpler...
without the 3 bet preflop. even hitting my hand is problematic (although a good problem to have)..the size of the pot (10 bets)..means if I just bet out..most draws will call. If I go for a checkraise...I risk the field a free card.(very bad).
I think if top card on flop is a Q...instead of the A...
A checkraise is much better, as the chance of the CO or someone else betting is higher..
But with the A...I should bet out.
rats...I just changed my mind again..lol

1) if you are going to call...SERIOUSLY CONSIDER RAISING
( A 3 bet preflop here)

2) to "protect" your hand out of position...SERIOUSLY CONSIDER GOING FOR A C/R...(making the field call two bets)

but is this "rule".....better when your TP is smaller?
like in this case...Q?

I think betting out on the flop is better here. It does not protect my hand, but it does get more chips in the pot when I have the best of it.
its a gamble between that....and TRYING for a C/R....

I think the top card (A) tells us which way to gamble here...

bet out....hope CO raises you ...the best of both worlds!!!