QT bets into me in razz: call or raise

[Ray Zee]

with four of the low cards you need out on third, i would be leery of limping hoping to get customers

[betgo]

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with four of the low cards you need out on third, i would be leery of limping hoping to get customers

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Wow, a response from Ray Zee. If he says limping here is bad, it is bad. However, sometimes the fact that a play is considered bad makes it effective. I get much better results limping a lot of hands. It works for me. If everyone wants to flame me when I post a limp with an open limp, fine.

[PNUTBRAND]

i would raise, should of raised coming in. try to get it HU and try to punish the QT player. But what can i say I catch kings in razz like noone!

[HOWMANY]

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with four of the low cards you need out on third, i would be leery of limping hoping to get customers

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Wow, a response from Ray Zee. If he says limping here is bad, it is bad. However, sometimes the fact that a play is considered bad makes it effective. I get much better results limping a lot of hands. It works for me. If everyone wants to flame me when I post a limp with an open limp, fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 10/20 I would always open limp in a full game from the first couple positions whether I had A23 or a mediocre 8 simply because I liked keeping the pot small with the tiny antes. A lot of the people would peel 4th in this spot after they brick which I'm pretty sure is terrible given pot size. In the Stars 30/any FTP game I would always complete any hand I wanted to play from any position unless I wanted to LRR which I didn't do that often. The pot is bigger so if they peel 4th their mistake isn't big, plus the bigger pot is now worth going after by itself while in the small ante game stealing the antes wasn't worth as much so it was more like trolling for someone to make a mistake after 3rd street. As TOP says, we are struggling for the antes. In the big ante games there is something to struggle for. In the small ante games there really isn't much out there so I felt it was better to struggle my way into pots where people will make mistakes instead. Obviously I want people to make mistakes in the bigger ante games as well, it's just that a lot of these mistakes don't get that bad until 5th or 6th street. My thought processes could be completely wrong here, but it makes sense in my head and worked decent in practice.

[SGspecial]

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with four of the low cards you need out on third, i would be leery of limping hoping to get customers

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, a response from Ray Zee. If he says limping here is bad, it is bad. However, sometimes the fact that a play is considered bad makes it effective. I get much better results limping a lot of hands. It works for me. If everyone wants to flame me when I post a limp with an open limp, fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping in the right spots is a fine art, and I agree with Ray that this wasn't a good spot. Just don't get too predictable in your play betgo, as good players will pick up on it and you lose any deception. Of course, unless you're playing against Ray or yours truly, I doubt you'll have to worry about that [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[betgo]

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with four of the low cards you need out on third, i would be leery of limping hoping to get customers

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, a response from Ray Zee. If he says limping here is bad, it is bad. However, sometimes the fact that a play is considered bad makes it effective. I get much better results limping a lot of hands. It works for me. If everyone wants to flame me when I post a limp with an open limp, fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping in the right spots is a fine art, and I agree with Ray that this wasn't a good spot. Just don't get too predictable in your play betgo, as good players will pick up on it and you lose any deception. Of course, unless you're playing against Ray or yours truly, I doubt you'll have to worry about that [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I think with a bunch of low cards to play is a good spot to limp in general, as if it is raised I can often dump junk or reraise good cards.

Usually, I would open raise a 7 high in this situation, but sometimes I limp. Part of the purpose of limping this hand was to make it hard to read what I limp with. Also, if I limp/call rather than limp/reraise, it can create deception as to the strength of my hand.

Maybe the limp is not good here, but a major reason I limp is to make my play unpredictable and hard to read.

[2461Badugi]

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Maybe the limp is not good here, but a major reason I limp is to make my play unpredictable and hard to read.

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Always raising first in works pretty well too, and is well-suited to big Razz games where nobody ever believes anyone isn't stealing.

Anyway, this is a clear raise to get rid of K2. QT will either give you free cards when you catch bad or spew like mad when you catch good. It's more or less impossible for him to play well.

[betgo]

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Maybe the limp is not good here, but a major reason I limp is to make my play unpredictable and hard to read.

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Always raising first in works pretty well too, and is well-suited to big Razz games where nobody ever believes anyone isn't stealing.

Anyway, this is a clear raise to get rid of K2. QT will either give you free cards when you catch bad or spew like mad when you catch good. It's more or less impossible for him to play well.

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If I always raise, people will not know that if I started with a strong hand or not. However, if I limp they will "know" I did not start with a string hand, which can lead to serious misreads.

I cannot always raise with three low cards to act. I certainly could always raise when I open, but then I have to open a limited number of hands. By sometimes limping, I can play a larger number of hands, some of them pretty weak hands, but I am only limping for a small percentage of the total pot, and I have no intention of calling a raise from a low card with them.

If I throw in some strong hands and medium hands, it protects the weak hands. I also gain some advantage of being able to throw away the medium hands easily if there is too much action. With the strong hands, I can limpreraise oe limpcall with deception.

I also gain a psychological edge, since most strong players think you shouldn't open limp much. They may make mistakes playing against unfamiliar and "bad" plays, and may underestimate my play in general.

I am not saying always coming in for a raise is wrong, but I don't think mixing in some limps in easily exploitable if the limper plays well.

[SGspecial]

Betgo: You make a very good argument for why limping with strong hands can be a good play. I'm a big supporter of your theory, but you have to look at each type of spot to see if the deception is worth giving up the value of raising. Ray's point is that in this hand the dead cards did NOT favor you, making your big starting hand weaker since you have less outs to draw to. You don't want to invite several players into the pot in this case because someone will make a hand and then you'll have a tough time catching the cards you need to beat them. It's more a question of whether you want a HU pot or multiway.

Think of it this way. You have JJ in HE. Do you want to raise to thin out the field, or play a 4 way pot? Now what about a big drawing hand like JTsu?

[halhal]

Say you do get heads up with your limp with a very strong hand. If you catch paint and the other guy catches good and bets, do you continue, even though the pot has not been raised even once? Or do you put the other guy on a sub-premium hand as well, especially if he was last to act on 3rd and thought you were "limp-stealing", and continue?

Now say you are 2nd or 3rd last to act, and a later low card
now raises, you've got various options: call to disguise your strength, or re-raise if you think the raiser is the type of player who puts you on a weaker hand because you limped. In any case, if you ARE 2nd or 3rd last low card to act with a great hand, why not always raise if you will get callers or re-raisers who think you are stealing?(You'll also get some bets if they pick anything decents, even though you're way ahead of them...otherwise your limp, and then bet on 4th will just pick up the antes, and a couple of bring-in size bets)