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#11
04-12-2007, 11:24 AM
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Re: D! Fence!
You are ahead of 2 hands he has (QQ,KK and semi-crushed by his likely other holdings (10's, jacks, AJ, AK, AA). I think it's likely he has KK with the king of diamonds though i havent played with jimmy long enough to know his level of spewing on the flop. I think your check is mediocre. You are good enough to know if he's checkraising you on air or if you need to improve to call the river. I think you can value bet the turn, if popped, call. Fold on the river if unimproved. Something i think you can also do, but need to do selectively, is 3 ball him on the turn if he checkraises you. You've seen me do this and it will typically freeze him on the river unless he has the uber-nutz in which case you can fold. He rarely will 4 ball you back on the turn and will most likely check the river and you can check bhind. Costs you the same as calling the C/R and calling the river unimproved. It also will freeze him in future hands from C/Ring you since he and the table have seen you 3 ball. So, it leads itself to positive draw value in the future as well. Obviously if he is holding AA he will likely 4 bet you. You have to go with your feel on this hand with him and I think your instincts tend to be in the right zone.
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#14
04-12-2007, 11:40 AM
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Re: D! Fence!
It could be seen as spewing.....except, if you are against a player like Jimmy, he will often call and check river unless he has a set and rivers a boat. You get the same cost for showdown unimproved as calling the C/R and calling the river bet. But you keep the vigorish...andj do not allow him to take control of the hand. On top of which in future hands, people will defer to you so often you will see your draws cheaply. In a vacuum i agree with you, but with Josh's image taking Jimmy to funky-town isnt a bad play and will keep him on his toes.
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#15
04-12-2007, 11:48 AM
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Re: D! Fence!
[ QUOTE ]
It could be seen as spewing.....except, if you are against a player like Jimmy, he will often call and check river unless he has a set and rivers a boat. You get the same cost for showdown unimproved as calling the C/R and calling the river bet. But you keep the vigorish...andj do not allow him to take control of the hand. On top of which in future hands, people will defer to you so often you will see your draws cheaply. In a vacuum i agree with you, but with Josh's image taking Jimmy to funky-town isnt a bad play and will keep him on his toes. [/ QUOTE ] But the point isn't about cost to showdown. You have a hand you cannot fold on the turn, and a massive draw. If you go 3 after he check raises you, you've guaranteed yourself the following: 1) you've put in 3 or 4 bets with the second best hand 2) you've now paid a huge price for a heads up draw 3) you've created a pot so big you almost have to call 1 bet on the river if he bets It's not only just a bad line, it's a terrible one. The object of limit holdem isn't to put in as many bets with the worst hand on the turn. Specially not when you can't fold.
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#18
04-12-2007, 12:50 PM
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Re: D! Fence!
How good is biker jimmy? If he's good, then i think u'll only get one more bb total out of him on turn/ river if he has QQ/KK given the PF/ flop action. Given this, checking is best. He'll either lead river, or c/c w/ KK or QQ after u check the turn through.
Also, if he really does hate u, i think u'll see a c/r here pretty often. And when he does this, u're hosed a huge % of the time, but u've built a nice litte pot and may not be able to fold the river given the hx.
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#19
04-12-2007, 12:57 PM
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Re: D! Fence!
[ QUOTE ]
You have a hand that is good a reasonable amount of time, & when you're behind it has 11 outs to the nuts + some other out that may or may not be good. [/ QUOTE ] If he check raises that A, your hand is not currently good. I'm talking about the idea of 3 betting a cr as being horrible. When he puts that cr in, we've got to consider that we need to improve. 11 outs on the turn means we're probably improving 1 time in 4. Certainly we're not jamming a heads up 25% draw....
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#20
04-12-2007, 01:35 PM
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Re: D! Fence!
[ QUOTE ]
How good is biker jimmy? If he's good, then i think u'll only get one more bb total out of him on turn/ river if he has QQ/KK given the PF/ flop action. Given this, checking is best. He'll either lead river, or c/c w/ KK or QQ after u check the turn through. Also, if he really does hate u, i think u'll see a c/r here pretty often. And when he does this, u're hosed a huge % of the time, but u've built a nice litte pot and may not be able to fold the river given the hx. [/ QUOTE ] ding we have a winner. My thoughts exactly. Plus, if he really does hate me and then bets the river with KK/QQ and I call. I'm sure it'll steam him up a bit. RESULTS: (not important I know) He fired the river and I called. He tabled his pocket 10's and said "you're supposed to bet the turn" I smiled and said nice hand.
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