Is it deep enough to flat call?

[TFGoose]

[ QUOTE ]
i call. u have good relative position and should hit the flop the mandatory 1/3 times.

i don't hate a fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is acting first of three "good relative position"? We're totally OOP in this pot.

--TFGoose

edit: for punctuation, because I'm a perfectionist.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
calling is bad. I push here cos I prefer a big stack early or to exit early, but folding would be okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're old and you're out of shape.

[Fiksdal]

I like a fold here. MP2's range is very strong here IMO, and CO could have a strong hand too given the read.

A lot of MP2's range is JJ,QQ, AK and obv AA/KK.

[ QUOTE ]

flop the mandatory 1/3 times.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and if we are up against AA/KK, this does us no good. If we are up against JJ/QQ, we probably get payed off very little.

Just calling here is -EV for sure.

I'll let others figure out the EV of pushing, it might be a profitable play, I'm not sure.

[bluefish]

im a little confused, what are all of the reasons we push here? we arent getting called unless were dominated? It doesnt really give us more information about the opponents hand... but calling and seing a flop we have a chance to get more information dont we?

[blockafor]

I'm still not convinced that a call is bad here. I also do not like a push. Does MP2 ever fold to a push or call with a dominated ace? I don't see that happening.

Even if we don't win any more money after the flop when we hit our hand, we're getting good odds to hit an ace or king. MP2's re-raise also seems more like he wants a fold and less like he has KK or AA and wants a call.

Just because CO smooth called with AA earlier, it doesn't mean he has a monster here. I see a lot of bad calls here with TT or AQ where better players are more likely to 4-bet or fold.

Also, we're soooooted.

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
we arent getting called unless were dominated? It doesnt really give us more information about the opponents hand... but calling and seing a flop we have a chance to get more information dont we?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine what villains might be holding. Say one of them has QQ. What flop could come that would be good for us? I can only think of one - TJQ. Otherwise, if an A or K flops, QQ isn't going to pay us much. If an A or K doesn't flop, we have to fold the flop. Now image a flop of AQ4. Very bad for us. Other hands besides QQ fit in this category as well.

In short, the implied odds are working against us if we call.

[kutuz_off]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i call. u have good relative position and should hit the flop the mandatory 1/3 times.

i don't hate a fold though.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is acting first of three "good relative position"? We're totally OOP in this pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that's from Sklansky's NLHE book. If I'm not mistaken, "relative position" in this context means that after you check to preflop-raiser and he puts in his mandatory C-bet, you will be last to act.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
How is acting first of three "good relative position"? We're totally OOP in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]"Relative position" is position after the aggressor. In this case we'd be acting last after the PF raiser's action if he bets on the flop (as we'd expect after a pf re-raise), which gives us good relative position, but bad absolute position.

[bluefish]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine what villains might be holding. Say one of them has QQ. What flop could come that would be good for us? I can only think of one - TJQ. Otherwise, if an A or K flops, QQ isn't going to pay us much. If an A or K doesn't flop, we have to fold the flop. Now image a flop of AQ4. Very bad for us. Other hands besides QQ fit in this category as well.

In short, the implied odds are working against us if we call.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes sense, but if we push the flop then arent we getting called by QQ? whereas were somewhat behind?

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is acting first of three "good relative position"? We're totally OOP in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]"Relative position" is position after the aggressor. In this case we'd be acting last after the PF raiser's action if he bets on the flop (as we'd expect after a pf re-raise), which gives us good relative position, but bad absolute position.

[/ QUOTE ]

in my experience this is somewhat less important in a 3-handed pot though (as opposed to 4 or more).