Need 2+2's help (long)

[dfan]

Usually Father's who follow the old "do as I say since I'm paying the bills" end up with kids who grow into resentful adults. There is such a basic lack of trust communicated by such ultimatums that the relationship between the two suffers. The OP is going to try to follow his father's wishes even though he doesn't even believe in them. And that is typical.

This will not likely make his grades go up either, since doing something you don't believe in doesn't tend to increase confidence, self-esteem, or do anything else good. (HS athletes have higher GPAs in sports season than out of it, for similar reasons.)

When my kids disagreed with me, we sat down and talked about it. If they still disagreed after our conversation, I respected their right to make their own choice whenever possible. Sometimes they turned out to be right - I learned from those times. Sometimes I turned out to be right - and they learned from those experiences. (Of course it was sometimes years later before they "saw the light that was my wisdom"!) And because I trusted them, they learned to trust themselves and grow into very independent, self-confident, happy, and responsible adults.

It would be fine for the father to say "I'm worried about your economics grades - what do you think will help you pull them up?" Then the son takes ownership of his plan to improve, and he has his father by his side encouraging him. Grades will be much more likely to improve, and more importantly the son will learn his father values his opinions and views about the world. There is no better way to communicate to someone that they have inside them what they need to make the right choices. Threatening to cut the purse strings does the opposite.

[th3 mol3]

Well, I'm getting deja-vu here because I made a very similar post about the same situation that I was in a while ago, maybe if I didn't post it in the newbie forum and I would have gotten more advice [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, my parents are currently helping me pay my way through university. My first year went fine, but then in the summer of 2004 I discovered poker. Due to various reasons, the main one being poker, I did awfully in my 2nd year... in fact I failed and I'm in the process of re-taking [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] You would think I would have learnt my lesson by now, but unfortunately after doing well this summer at poker and making a nice amount, I lost a huge % of my bankroll when I went back to uni. So, I stupidly spent more time trying to win back what I had lost (even though I only started with $20, so I hadn't actually lost anything) then doing anything else. So, once again my future at university is in jeopardy.

After reading the replies in this thread, I've really thought about how much I'm letting my parents down. Although, I've been feeling pretty low recently so maybe sub-consciously I already knew. I must seem so ungrateful and selfish to my dad, who didn't have the luxury of someone to help him pay for his university education. This is a wake up call I really needed.

Fortunately, I have managed to win most of my bankroll back by doing well at short-handed (I used to play full table, but now I feel I have the experience to outplay my opponents, so playing short-handed makes sense). I guess now I have no excuse to chill out on the poker, and work my arse off. I suggest you do the same thing, egocidal, because after the past few months of huge winnings and losses, I've decided that I wouldn't like to pursue poker professionally because it's just not financially secure enough. Well, unless you have a very healthy bankroll to start with and your game is super good, which will take years and years to happen. I personally think it’s far from an ideal way to make a living, that’s why I’m now determined to get a degree.

Sorry if that post didn’t read to well, its 3.30am here lol. I hope you get my message anyway.

[livinitup0]

Just lie. No offense to anyone, but I have found that trying to change a hard-core catholic's views is kinda like trying to pick up a nun...pointless and ultimately futile.

I would've asked him why he's so unconfident in his catholic parenting that his son would become a degenerate gambler....then Id follow up with some smart-ass comment that makes me sound smart...like..."Anyone can abstain from their propencities, but it requires a higher state of self awareness to control our natural instincts".....then Id kick him in the balls while flailing my hands in the air screaming SHIP IT!

[calc]

Firstly gambling is not in conflict with the Catholic Religion at all. I can't tell you the number of catholic priests and nuns I know with open gambling habits. (mostly the horses).

Secondly your Dad is not only being illogical but he is being unreasonable. Therefore if you really like to play and can do so while still getting things done school wise there's no reason you shouldn't. Although your parents are paying for your college they don't have the right to tell you what you can and can't in your spare time as long as you forfill your obligations to them. So with that in mind I'd just keep playing and not tell him if thats what you want. If he is going to be unreasonable about such things you are old enough to decide you can do them anyway and not let him find out about it.

The only other thing I'll say is although poker is fun, and can make money, it does take time. It is unlikely you have the time for studies, a social life, and playing poker. The first two are the most important obviously and you should mostly skip playing poker if either of the two are suffering.

Don't become one of those people who do what they need to do to get by and spend the rest of their time playing cards. Chances are you will develop into a very boring and unhappy person before you realise it.

Your job right now is your studies. Your down time should be about having fun, making friends and getting a girl if you haven't already got one. If all this is hunky dory then you have time to play some cards. Maybe after you graduate you will discover that you can earn more playing poker than in your chosen profession, but that is a long shot. For now you should keep your eye on the ball and don't let poker control your life and limit your options in terms of both your career and social life...

[caretaker1]

[ QUOTE ]
No respectable adult would be ok with what you are doing. If you can prove me wrong I will let you play.

[/ QUOTE ]: This is a moral challenge, not a math one (as mentioned already).

[ QUOTE ]
"I am tired of the strict black and white view that my father has, and would love to prove to him that poker is not dice

[/ QUOTE ] : Get used to it, most folks I know who are strong against it don't change their opinion just because you explain the math to them.

Think this boils down to a risk/reward analysis that only you can make.

[egocidal]

Well, I didn't think this would get bumped back up, i sort of forgot I made the post haha. here is what I did:

1) Almost exact statment to my dad: "Look. We will always disagree on this. You taught me that you will never convince anyone from the opposite side of the fence to change their mind. And i don't think I can change yours. Just know that we will have this discussion on the ethics and theory of poker in the future. I agree that my grades could have been better, I hope to do really well this next semster and plan to begin follwiong the stock market and investing. I will stop playing for right now simply because I feel I would not prove my point to you by continuing. I hope to show you that it is not a habit by being able to stop whenever I want to."

2) I withdrew my BR until I had what I deposited a long time ago. I havent played since the discussion, and I am not sure I am going to. I do want to keep the account active though, and play in freerolls, etc. I will continue to read and reread all my poker books, and I don't think I will stop going to casinos all together. After reading all the responses, I said to myslef what I knew all along: my grades weren't poor by any means. But I could have done better. And that directly correlates to the amount of time I spent playing.

3) Interesting point: I went to see the Chronicles of Narnia with my dad and my sister over break. (enjoyable movie, btw) We were discussing investing on the car ride and my dad said "Look, Nathan. Investing is all about minimizing risk. Bad things can happen, the market can go up or down. Its what you do with your money and the decisions you make that matter."


You know, there may be hope in this debate after all.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Its what you do with your money and the decisions you make that matter."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read the philosophy forum at all you will know that I am a conservative catholic, and also one who plays fulltime online for a living. The poster who quoted the catechism is correct about catholic teaching, i.e. that as long as you are not using money otherwise needed to meet your just obligations, don't cheat, and don't hustle gambling degenerates to play, then you are not doing anything wrong.

And as far as the math, the quote above by your dad is the key and one that Mike Caro emphasizes regarding poker being beatable unlike most casino games, i.e. that your decisions matter. This is easy to prove.

Since you have told him you will give up playing for now, then you should stick to your word or renegotiate the deal. A fair compromise would be to ask him to agree that you can budget a set amount a month for poker, in case you need to rebuild your roll, and limit yourself to so many hours a week mainly on the weekend when you don't need to study. Also you could agree to keep a log of your playing time and results and share it with him monthly. But don't go back on your word without telling him, not only because of the possible consequences if found out, but because you will have permanently damaged your integrity with him.

Regarding the live play at casinos, you might want to avoid that as part of a deal since that might worry him about your being sucked into negative expectation games as well (if they have any other than slots). Plus you can make more online multitabling unless you play very high which I assume you aren't.

And you could also print out this post or the entire thread and show it to him.

[chadplusplus]

Just one more response on the pile... But I want to share my story so that you know that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

Quick preface: moral, conservative parents, hated poker, but dealt with my playing for nickels and dimes with my friends, as long as they didn't ever hear about it.

Fast forward a few years. I paid my own way through undergrad, became a engineer, made some bucks, and now just paid my way through law school. After a recent trip to Vegas, they were asking me about my trip, and I was frank - admitted that all I did out there was play poker. This time, however, instead of frowning and grumbling and lecturing, my dad actually asked me questions about it and I explained how a lot of the strategy works. He listened intently and asked a few more questions. Finally, he concluded, "Ah, I see, so you're actually a mathmatician, and not just a gambler." It was a suprisingly pleasant conversation.

My parents' change in attitude about poker was simply amazing and I was astonished. While I still don't think they love the idea, they have, at least, accepted the fact that I have worked hard to get where I am, that I am financially independent, and that I earned a lot of their respect by accomplishing what I have. Consequently, they respect the decision I make regarding my own money.

To the OP: It sounds like you've already figured out what you're going to do. I just wanted to let you know that once I "succeeded" in my parents' eyes, they were much more receptive of my decisions. And I believe many parents will react in the same way. (As I hope your father will one day.)

[ORTOM]

I didn't have time to read every post, so forgive me if somebody has covered this already. In Super System 2, Doyle relates some events from his own life and talks about religion and poker. Hope this helps.