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#21
03-27-2007, 12:14 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
bump cause its got potential.
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#23
03-27-2007, 12:18 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
[ QUOTE ]
why are we not leading out n taking control on the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Because a check-raise and or check/call + lead turn is such a stronger play. Most players don't lead with a T here. They slowplay. If you lead the flop and get called or raised, you have trapped yourself. Leading the flop only works against hands that you are beating. Some of those same hands which fold to a lead will c-bet/fold to a check-raise on the flop.
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#24
03-27-2007, 12:26 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Because we don't want him to fold worse hands and raise better hands. [/ QUOTE ] When more cards come that force us to fold to any further betting, than blanks, a fold on the flop is exactly what you want imo. Besides an 8, what turn would you feel good about calling a 2nd barrel? A Raise also makes hands that are better (in terms of equity and draw-out %), fold. [/ QUOTE ] Do you c/r Tx hands here as well? Also, how big of a raise do you put in? [/ QUOTE ] C/R amount is always standard 3x their bet to 4 x their bet. I always raise pretty big. I raise SOOO many hands here... a good draw, Tx, a set, the nuts, etc. I guess that's why I'm more inclined to C/R here.
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#25
03-27-2007, 12:37 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] By default I c/c-lead turn. [/ QUOTE ] This...or sometimes c/r flop. [/ QUOTE ] QFT [/ QUOTE ] What makes c/c-lead turn superior to c/ring the flop? We're still generally folding him out when behind and getting called/raised when ahead, so both of these are generally protection bets. But when we c/r flop we deny him a shot at a turn card. What do we gain by waiving that advantage and calling flop, leading turn?
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#26
03-27-2007, 12:43 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
wasn't there a thread regarding raising/betting for "protection" recently.
There was some pretty good discussion in there regarding the getting only called by better hands concept. Though we're only getting called by better hands, I agree that there's a ton of cards that can make turn difficult. Obviously a balance between c/c, lead turn and this is necessary.
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#27
03-27-2007, 12:47 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
This is expressly a problem of reverse implied odds. Your hand decreases in showdown value for every card that is exposed. It's not an issue of "protection," it's an issue of getting your money in when your equity is highest.
At the same time if you haven't set yourself up with an image that fits C/Ring this flop, then you may not get away with it. People OOP are more likely to bluff than those IP.
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#28
03-27-2007, 01:08 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] By default I c/c-lead turn. [/ QUOTE ] This...or sometimes c/r flop. [/ QUOTE ] QFT [/ QUOTE ] What makes c/c-lead turn superior to c/ring the flop? We're still generally folding him out when behind and getting called/raised when ahead, so both of these are generally protection bets. But when we c/r flop we deny him a shot at a turn card. What do we gain by waiving that advantage and calling flop, leading turn? [/ QUOTE ] Because the c-c / lead turn or "delayed check-raise" strongly indicates we have a T. Whereas a check-raise on the flop can mean a lot of things. Besides, while the turn can hit his hand, it is more likely to be a scare card to him that will further enhance the fold equity of the turn lead.
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#29
03-27-2007, 01:24 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
Leading flop here is just going to blow him off his whiffed overs that he would otherwise cbet.
If the villain is very aggressive with the 2barrels, I'll c/c, c/c here. In general, I'll c/r here. I want to allow him to fire a cbet with air, and that's about all I'm looking for. If we end up in a huge pot here we're probably no good, and with any club or J-A hitting the turn things get ugly, so I'm inclined to c/r the flop and just look to settle it there. If I get more action, I'm done with it. If the villain is a very tough player, all this stuff sucks honestly. A flop c/r is pretty transparent to a good villain as a marginal pair just looking to get it over with, a stop and go somewhat less transparent but not much different. He can play perfect, and probably knows he can move us of our hand with ATC if he feels like it. That's why against a tough villain, you need to not put yourself in this spot. Either 3bet pre and take the lead, or just fold - playing for set value is spew, and trying to call down with a shakey pair with no idea where we stand against a good player is awful as well. The paired board thing makes a difference here to me, because this board with 2 solid players often becomes a pissing match.
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#30
04-06-2007, 12:28 PM
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Re: 200NL - 99, Line?
[ QUOTE ]
This is expressly a problem of reverse implied odds. Your hand decreases in showdown value for every card that is exposed. It's not an issue of "protection," it's an issue of getting your money in when your equity is highest. [/ QUOTE ] Master, can you expand on RIO as it applies to this? At first glance, it would seem as a "safe" turn card would greatly increase our showdown value. Are you saying that if the villain continues to bet on turn, we will be hardpressed to showdown/unlikely to be good? Separately, I tend to go into calling station mode on these hands against aggressive players, but it's tough to avoid being really exploitable doing this. In this specific situation, the smallish flop bet makes me think he either has a monster or nothing(but even "nothing" likely has solid equity on us), so the flop c/r may not be bad, with c/f a non-awesome turn. I think if he does have a draw or middling hand, this turn will get checked behind a lot, and we can reevaluate on river. Jesse EDIT: Just realized I bumped this...whatever, I think this hand is interesting.
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