4 handed AQ

[DiscipleAA]

Calling seke2, is the worst possible thing you could do in this spot...

[seke2]

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Calling seke2, is the worst possible thing you could do in this spot...

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Totally disagree, see previous post, note points about ICM calc based on stack sizes, likely cooperation play postflop, and then refute my post with an actual argument.

[yNnOs]

Well, your getting good odds on a call here, but it takes over a 1/3 of your remaining stack. Push or fold in my opinion.

[DiscipleAA]

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Calling seke2, is the worst possible thing you could do in this spot...

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Totally disagree, see previous post, note points about ICM calc based on stack sizes, likely cooperation play postflop, and then refute my post with an actual argument.

[/ QUOTE ]If you shove and the BB won the hand you still made it in the money... If you shove and win the hand you have a great chance of winning the whole tourney... I actually like folding better then I do calling (although both are just plain wrong IMO)... Lets look at it this way... do an ICM calculation on your position 3 handed with a 20K stack (not having just fead the other 8 to the BB who was already the big stack)... I'm sorry if it seems like I am being rude... I just think calling is retarded...

Disciple

[seke2]

But what's the point of the shoving? Obviously you don't have much FE against the bigstack here, so I'm assuming he's always calling if you push preflop. And postflop, you obv all the chips in the middle if you make a pair, and if not, you can fairly assume your opponent will cooperation play with you, and if he bets, you can fold...and still have enough chips to have a very good chance at second.

His flat-call is quite scary for me, and this gives you a way to reduce your losses when he has a monster hand, and still win a nice pot sometimes too.

You have to remember, cooperation play here doesn't mean we will only ever win the amount in the pot preflop, if our opponent has AJ or something and the flop comes A-high, we get the rest of his chips too. But when it comes all rags and our opponent bets, we can fold and feel pretty comfortable that we just got ITM. And if he doesn't bet the rag board, we can just check it through and ace-high could even hold up too.

I really don't feel like doing all the math, but I really don't see the advantage of pushing over calling here. You have no real FE. I think you can get more value out of the remaining 12.5k chips you have by cooperation playing with them postflop than pushing them in preflop.

[reecelights]

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Totally disagree, see previous post, note points about ICM calc based on stack sizes, likely cooperation play postflop, and then refute my post with an actual argument.

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I agree. Call and hope check it down.

You are likely ahead of SB range. Worst case if BB shoves the flop, you fold and are in ITM in 2nd and can still do a bit of damage with 8BB to push.

[DiscipleAA]

I dont even think calling is an option here... and I'm certainly not sure how it has managed to get this far in an argument... the fact is that your hand either has value here or it doesnt... If you believe your hand has value then you push... If it doesnt then you fold and have a high % chance of going 3 handed with a 20k stack rather then a 12k stack (this is just a weak line though IMO, but still better then calling)... calling half your stack and then folding to a bet on the flop is very very bad... all it accomplishes is reducing your chance to win the hand by taking away more then 28% of your cards...

Side Note - As part of my style of play... I am never playing for second...

[sethypooh21]

Given that this appears to be a regular game, I think we can discount the possibility of BB bluffing a dry side pot at you, the chance of a check down is reasonably high. If you just call, it's going to be hard for you to both lose the rest of your chips this hand AND not cash

[seke2]

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Side Note - As part of my style of play... I am never playing for second...

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Well, learn to play for $EV, not first. This is more like a STT than a MTT structure/payout wise, and you make profit in STTs by making the money consistently, not by coming in 1st rarely like a MTT.
Also, you're calling 1/3 of your stack, not 1/2. You already put 5k in, you have 20k left and need to call about 7k more. And folding to a bet on the flop here is not like a normal boring hand. If your opponent bets into you on the flop, he's almost certainly indicating he has a strong hand (relative to whatever the flop is). You can fold the flop to a bet without worrying a lot that you're folding to a bluff because he's not likely to bluff into a dry side-pot.

[Mr_Donktastic]

Call and check it down.