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#11
04-05-2007, 01:54 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
I think villian in this hand knows he cant get in enough steals before he is called to catch up... because the next closest stack size is 38k... he knows he needs to double through someone to get back in this one... [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] he has 9 BB, he is on the button, on the bubble, where he could still damage anyone that calls decently...honestly, id shove a huge range there. [/ QUOTE ] So now you are putting him on any 2?... Tell me something Poison, If the dealer screws up and accidently does not deal villian his hole cards? does he still shove in this spot [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] sigh... 
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#12
04-05-2007, 01:59 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] he has 9 BB, he is on the button, on the bubble, where he could still damage anyone that calls decently...honestly, id shove a huge range there. [/ QUOTE ] So now you are putting him on any 2?... Tell me something Poison, If the dealer screws up and accidently does not deal villian his hole cards? does he still shove in this spot [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] sigh... [/ QUOTE ] im not saying hes pushing any 2, im saying that hes pushing tons of hands there, and A9 is a great hand against his range. and youre saying he cant climb back when theyre is 1/6 of his stack in the pot before any action? 19495 + 3225 profit he would make by shoving and everyone folding = 22720. few of them, and hes right back in it...come on man.
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#13
04-05-2007, 02:15 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] he has 9 BB, he is on the button, on the bubble, where he could still damage anyone that calls decently...honestly, id shove a huge range there. [/ QUOTE ] So now you are putting him on any 2?... Tell me something Poison, If the dealer screws up and accidently does not deal villian his hole cards? does he still shove in this spot [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] sigh... [/ QUOTE ] im not saying hes pushing any 2<font color="blue"> OK </font>, im saying that hes pushing tons of hands there<font color="blue"> OK </font>, and A9 is a great hand against his range<font color="blue"> DISAGREE </font>. and youre saying he cant climb back when theyre is 1/6<font color="blue"> Stack - Steal Ratio has nothing to do with whether this is a value call against villians shove but thank you for pointing out the obvious </font> of his stack in the pot before any action? 19495 + 3225 profit he would make by shoving and everyone folding = 22720<font color="blue"> Working that convience magic again are we, lets say that villian does this every single time he is on the button... he still then has to go through the blinds and post the antes... just shoving the button gets him nowhere other then +EV when he picks up a hand for real... its break even... He has to shove ahead of the blinds and he has to do it atleast 4 times to catch up to the other 3 stacks... raising 2 times an orbit... say the button and the cutoff, will get him the necessary increase he needs to beat the curve if he does this 4 times... so he plays against 5 hands an orbit X 4 orbits... you are saying that he doesnt get called by a much better hand shoving against 20 random sets of two hole cards??? (oh and by the way 4 orbits is a generous # it doesnt even but him above 38k Im just assuming that in that time it is possible that someone else throws away some of thier chips... putting villian in 3rd place </font>. few of them, and hes right back in it...come on man. <font color="blue"> I think I just showed it is more then a few... come on man </font> [/ QUOTE ]
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#14
04-05-2007, 02:32 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Working that convience magic again are we, lets say that villian does this every single time he is on the button... he still then has to go through the blinds and post the antes... just shoving the button gets him nowhere other then +EV when he picks up a hand for real... its break even... He has to shove ahead of the blinds and he has to do it atleast 4 times to catch up to the other 3 stacks... raising 2 times an orbit... say the button and the cutoff, will get him the necessary increase he needs to beat the curve if he does this 4 times... so he plays against 5 hands an orbit X 4 orbits... you are saying that he doesnt get called by a much better hand shoving against 20 random sets of two hole cards??? (oh and by the way 4 orbits is a generous # it doesnt even but him above 38k Im just assuming that in that time it is possible that someone else throws away some of thier chips... putting villian in 3rd place </font> [/ QUOTE ] well if youre folding A9 to his shoves, then it would actually be really easy for him to do it. he may run into a hand within your range of calling 2 times on average during those 20. the blinds going up can reduce this number, also if he chips up to say 30k he should stop shoving most of the time. and if he does do this, youd regret not calling the A9 im not good at debating, kinda difficult for me to articulate my ideas, so bravo if that makes sense. im trying to say hsi range is a lot wider then you think it is
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#15
04-05-2007, 02:46 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> Working that convience magic again are we, lets say that villian does this every single time he is on the button... he still then has to go through the blinds and post the antes... just shoving the button gets him nowhere other then +EV when he picks up a hand for real... its break even... He has to shove ahead of the blinds and he has to do it atleast 4 times to catch up to the other 3 stacks... raising 2 times an orbit... say the button and the cutoff, will get him the necessary increase he needs to beat the curve if he does this 4 times... so he plays against 5 hands an orbit X 4 orbits... you are saying that he doesnt get called by a much better hand shoving against 20 random sets of two hole cards??? (oh and by the way 4 orbits is a generous # it doesnt even but him above 38k Im just assuming that in that time it is possible that someone else throws away some of thier chips... putting villian in 3rd place </font> [/ QUOTE ] well if youre folding A9 to his shoves, then it would actually be really easy for him to do it. he may run into a hand within your range of calling 2 times on average during those 20 <font color="red"> He MAY run into it 20 times... he MAY run in to it 0 times... He MAY run into the easter bunny after tripping on the escalator at the mall... He WILL run into a hand in "MY" range on an average of 2 times over those 20 hands... All you did was prove my point </font>. the blinds going up can reduce this number <font color="red"> Actually the blinds going up is another argument against you... It decreases you M and therefore puts the person in 4th place in an even worse spot where he has to play even weaker holdings, lets put it this way, If you are raising any 2... you do not want to be called... especially against players you believe to be playing tighter because they have "more to lose" by calling </font> , also if he chips up to say 30k he should stop shoving most of the time <font color="red"> I had him stop shoving at a little over 30K because this is obviously correct... you could probably remove the button shove on the last orbit... putting him instead against 18 hands... but this doesnt make me any less correct </font> . and if he does do this, youd regret not calling the A9 <font color="red"> Nope, I will sleep just fine at night knowing I made the right play, Can you??? </font> im not good at debating, kinda difficult for me to articulate my ideas, so bravo if that makes sense. im trying to say hsi range is a lot wider then you think it is <font color="red"> I understand everything that you are saying I just disagree with it... without first in vigorish there is no way IMO that you should be calling with A9 for this much of your stack against what I believe to be villians range in this case [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] </font> [/ QUOTE ]
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#16
04-05-2007, 02:59 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
during that time, while he chips up, you probably wont have a chance to and the stacks will be much more even putting you at risk. will you keep tightening your range since his shoves would suddenly become more and more and even all of your stack? yes youre the chip leader, youre the only one who has room to call without damaging your stack very much, A9 is beating his holding much of the time. there is an argument if the other players are playing nitty to fold, so you can keep the bubble going and chip up off the medium stacks, but i tend to play for the knockout punch. i feel this is a decent edge, and i expect to be ahead often. as i said before, it adds up to huge range. 9 BB, button, short stack, and he has been opening up since losing that big hand, whats to say he isnt tilting? likely not but the possibility is there. if villain knew you were folding A9 there, id believe his range would widen a good bit
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#17
04-05-2007, 03:21 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
during that time, while he chips up, you probably wont have a chance to <font color="blue"> There is nothing stopping you from making moves when you have the first in vigorish to pick up the value from the dead money in the pot so this really isnt the case but I'm going to entertain the notion </font> and the stacks will be much more even putting you at risk <font color="blue"> OK </font> . will you keep tightening your range since his shoves would suddenly become more and more and even all of your stack? <font color="blue"> NO, because the situation, atleast as how we are arguing it, is a gap concept, it does not matter at what point in the gap he runs into the first of the 2 hands he will run into from "my" range </font> yes youre the chip leader <font color="blue"> OK </font> , youre the only one who has room to call without damaging your stack very much <font color="blue"> It still hurts the CL preety bad, considering the position you are in now, and the position you will be in when you lose </font> , A9 is beating his holding much of the time <font color="blue"> Still disagree with this </font> . there is an argument if the other players are playing nitty to fold, so you can keep the bubble going and chip up off the medium stacks, but i tend to play for the knockout punch. i feel this is a decent edge, and i expect to be ahead often <font color="blue"> Sigh </font> . as i said before, it adds up to huge range. 9 BB, button, short stack, and he has been opening up since losing that big hand, whats to say he isnt tilting? <font color="blue"> Even if you are right, how many hands does it take before you would consider the villian to have cooled off </font> likely not but the possibility is there <font color="blue"> small I think </font> . if villain knew you were folding A9 there, id believe his range would widen a good bit <font color="blue"> We just made up a scenario where all opponents folded to his any 2 shoves from the button and Cutoff with less then the top 10%... and he still trailed in that optimal situation... </font> [/ QUOTE ]
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#18
04-05-2007, 03:32 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
gaargh reading your posts becomes much more difficult when u do that
anyway, the first in vigorish? if youre letting him push the table around, you arent going to get many chances to raise, are you? it would not hurt you as bad as it owuld hurt the others, were you to call the A9 and lose, stacks would be around even, and you could still push the table around if you chose to. ok what range are you putting him on there? i feel like itd be way too tight though...
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#19
04-05-2007, 04:01 AM
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Re: $6 shootout, round 2 bubble time. Call this push?
[ QUOTE ]
gaargh reading your posts becomes much more difficult when u do that <font color="red"> I think it is easier to see your thoughts in relation to mine in each area we are discussing when they directly follow yours and are in a different color </font> anyway, the first in vigorish? <font color="red"> Yes </font> if youre letting him push the table around <font color="red"> This isnt really what we are doing, what we are really doing is letting the person with first in vigorish push the table around, when that person is villian in the cutoff, and in the button to a cutoff fold then he is bullying the table yes </font> , you arent going to get many chances to raise, are you? <font color="red"> Obviously, this is wrong, you have the first oppurtunity when in the cutoff and whe the cutoff folds in front of you, you gain the same oppurtinty of first in vigorish as the villian does, in this regard it should be easy to maintain your stack, the villian is the one who has to catch up </font> it would not hurt you as bad as it owuld hurt the others, were you to call the A9 and lose, <font color="red"> This is true but irrelevent </font> stacks would be around even, and you could still push the table around if you chose to <font color="red"> Nope, in all likelyhood if you lose this hand with the blinds go up, the scenario that will follow is a 4-way all-in crapshoot, which when compared to being the CL is not a very good situation at all </font> . ok what range are you putting him on there? i feel like itd be way too tight though... [/ QUOTE ]
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