A fairly simple spot i don't really know how to play

[Apegod]

hi all,

decided to step out of the lurking mode and get more active on these forums..

reading this thread seems like the general consensus is too either call , call/shove or shove.

And I dont understand it. Op didnt give any indication as to co's style of play. so do we generally assume he's opening with a wide range because he's a big stack and in a blind steal position?

if so how do you rate 77's versus his range ( what is his range for your guys).

my thoughts: his range is indeed pretty wide: Ax+, K9+, any suited connecters 56+ + any pair.

I dont use all the neat calculator programs but a pair of sevens probably isnt good enough to shove here.. we have a decent stack and adding together the possibility of winning the hand right there with a shove+ being ahead/behind when he calls are not good enough to shove with sevens ( I would give us a 30% change of winning it right there+ 70 % of him calling).

so since shoving is not an option for me, lets move on to raising.. well since shoving isnt an option, raising for is not an option either

calling for set value.. giving up 10% of my stack to potentially gain 100% more. is it worth it in this situation?

i'm guessing most of us with call /fold the flop , right?

[DiscipleAA]

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Call all day.

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If we call are we shoving on ace-rag-rag flops when he leads into us? king-rag-rag? are we betting Axy or Kxy if he checks to us? <font color="blue"> I would assume that Bond will outplay a random unknown post flop, I am not worried about him commiting himself to the pot on the flop with the worst hand, if that is what you mean </font>

if we are folding to a c-bet on any of these boards then his initiative advantage &gt; our positional advantage. And if we are not folding to a c-bet then aren't we letting him play closer to optimally than if we just shove on him preflop? <font color="blue"> In my initial post I stated that raising and shoving were IMO not completely terrible plays but that calling was better EV, the problem I have with shoving is that villian is not calling 66-, so when we do get called are best case scenario is that we are racing, when we do not have to get involved in this hand to begin with... </font>

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just minraise pre [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
<font color="blue"> hmm, I didnt think of this angle for some reason but I think I like it... lets just say ZJ123 &gt; Disciple </font>
and meh with a 1k less i prolly raise/call, but here, i guess a call is ok.
<font color="blue"> Ya, I still dont think a call is in any way out of line </font>

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hi all,

decided to step out of the lurking mode and get more active on these forums.. <font color="blue"> Welcome, to the forums, I hope you learn more then I will ever know [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] </font>

reading this thread seems like the general consensus is too either call , call/shove or shove.

And I dont understand it. Op didnt give any indication as to co's style of play. so do we generally assume he's opening with a wide range because he's a big stack and in a blind steal position?

if so how do you rate 77's versus his range ( what is his range for your guys).

my thoughts: his range is indeed pretty wide: Ax+, K9+, any suited connecters 56+ + any pair.

I dont use all the neat calculator programs but a pair of sevens probably isnt good enough to shove here.. we have a decent stack and adding together the possibility of winning the hand right there with a shove+ being ahead/behind when he calls are not good enough to shove with sevens ( I would give us a 30% change of winning it right there+ 70 % of him calling). <font color="blue"> He should get called far less often then that, Which is why shoving is still +EV IMO, However, I'm not convinced it is the most +EV play because the times when you are called you really can't be far ahead, I think calling is better and as of the last 10 seconds a mini-raise is my favorite play for this particular spot... </font>

so since shoving is not an option for me, lets move on to raising.. well since shoving isnt an option, raising for is not an option either <font color="blue"> I agree with you that raising to a standard ~2000 is worse then shoving because since you commit yourself to calling a shove, shoving to begin with gives you addional FE, but did you read ZJ123's post, I think I like his mini-raise idea... </font>

calling for set value.. giving up 10% of my stack to potentially gain 100% more. is it worth it in this situation? <font color="blue"> It is very close if you cant take the pot ever when you dont hit the set then it may be incorrect because you would have to stack your opponent nearly everytime you hit your set, which is not very realistic, However, I believe Bond can win this spot when he doesnt hit his set some of the time (when his opponent misses the flop), and even occasionally when he is behind </font>

i'm guessing most of us with call /fold the flop , right?

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> Depends, and I'm not talking about the diapers [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] </font>

[namespace]

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make it 2k call a shove.

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I agree 90%. I like 2500.

I never give an unknown credit for a tight range from the CO so I want to make it expensive and get rid of junk, like T9, KT, etc. and narrow my range down to AK-AQ, small-mid pairs.

This way I feel much better about CAI/jamming the flop which I will do 100% of the time if paint doesn't hit.

[TheFoxNL]

i think if you shove you got more FE and prob only getting heads up against the CO wich in most cases youre ahead
if you just call you might get a squeezeplay from the SB/BB
then what ?
are you gonna call that ?
and what if we do get heads up and get c-betted to?

imo calling and seeing a flop just leads to difficult decisicions with 1 exception hitting a set

i prefer a shove here or at least a 3bet raise
this way we show we are strong have some FE prob not getting sqeeuzed

so shove or 3bet IMO

[ASPoker8]

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Call all day.

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but what do we do at night?

[registrar]

Set value + position + nearly 6x pot behind on flop = call.

[rppkoz]

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Call all day.

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If we call are we shoving on ace-rag-rag flops when he leads into us?

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We will call.

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king-rag-rag?

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Call again.

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are we betting Axy or Kxy if he checks to us?

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Depending on board texture - most of the time.

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if we are folding to a c-bet on any of these boards then his initiative advantage &gt; our positional advantage. And if we are not folding to a c-bet then aren't we letting him play closer to optimally than if we just shove on him preflop?

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That said, I hate cold calling raises almost always, but vs. an unknown this seems like a good spot for it.

[betgo]

Push or call. A smaller reraise is not good with this hand and in position. The push is pretty profitable. If you call, you may need to play it aggressively without a set, and sometimes you will look silly busting out, but you can't just fold if you miss.

[BlueEcho]

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if so how do you rate 77's versus his range ( what is his range for your guys).

my thoughts: his range is indeed pretty wide: Ax+, K9+, any suited connecters 56+ + any pair.

I dont use all the neat calculator programs but a pair of sevens probably isnt good enough to shove here..

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I don't if your range is right but here is one of those neat calculator programs you speak of using your range.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.363% 55.92% 00.44% 330352764 2606840.00 { 7c7h }
Hand 1: 43.637% 43.20% 00.44% 255178436 2606840.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K9o+ }

[RichC.]

FWIW, I am calling this CO raise with a wide range myself, SCs and big PPs. So calling is more favorable in my opinion.