How much pushing is too much?

[wickss]

If you're UTG, you should fold. On the button or in the blinds with no one else limping, you could push or at least raise. Usually if you push too frequently, you will get called by a wider range of hands. Going all in with no previous action screams weakness especially if you do it a lot. Even players at low stakes can recognize this and will open up their range of calling hands.

I prefer to raise to 3 or 4 BBs. People don't notice this as much as when I go all in.

Bottom line: Going all in with no previous action decreases your folding equity a little every time you do it.

[DevinLake]

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But thanks for the help...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...I think this is sarcastic.

Well, here is what hopefully will be a helpful post.

When deciding what will be +EV and will not be there are several factors to consider. First, the arrangement of stacks. Pushing on the bubble with the big stack is a lot different than pushing with a medium stack into bigger stacks.

Second, reads. Knowing if a player is loose to begin with and how they might respond to your third shove is important.

Third, your table image. Closely related to the last point.

So, now back to your OP. You think you have an intuitive sense of what is +EV. But, I'd really have to think this cannot be the case. If this was the case, you would know about all the factors I mentioned above, and not ask a push/fold ICM based question without providing this information.

It makes me think that these factors don't really enter into your decision making process which is a huge leak.

[ger664]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're UTG, you should fold. On the button or in the blinds with no one else limping, you could push or at least raise. Usually if you push too frequently, you will get called by a wider range of hands. Going all in with no previous action screams weakness especially if you do it a lot. Even players at low stakes can recognize this and will open up their range of calling hands.

I prefer to raise to 3 or 4 BBs. People don't notice this as much as when I go all in.

Bottom line: Going all in with no previous action decreases your folding equity a little every time you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And BB's love to over the top of your 3-4 BB raise. OOPs half my stack gone.

[weknowhowtolive]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But thanks for the help...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...I think this is sarcastic.

Well, here is what hopefully will be a helpful post.

When deciding what will be +EV and will not be there are several factors to consider. First, the arrangement of stacks. Pushing on the bubble with the big stack is a lot different than pushing with a medium stack into bigger stacks.

Second, reads. Knowing if a player is loose to begin with and how they might respond to your third shove is important.

Third, your table image. Closely related to the last point.

So, now back to your OP. You think you have an intuitive sense of what is +EV. But, I'd really have to think this cannot be the case. If this was the case, you would know about all the factors I mentioned above, and not ask a push/fold ICM based question without providing this information.

It makes me think that these factors don't really enter into your decision making process which is a huge leak.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks thats more what I was asking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I do take into account my image but without SNGTP which I cannot afford right now, everything is guesswork or past knowledge at the table.

I know I have a huge leak, thats for sure, because my ROI has dropped greatly and I know I'm not playing my best...which is why I asked this!

Thanks everyone. I think I'll tighten up a bit for now and see if my ROI goes back up.

[wickss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're UTG, you should fold. On the button or in the blinds with no one else limping, you could push or at least raise. Usually if you push too frequently, you will get called by a wider range of hands. Going all in with no previous action screams weakness especially if you do it a lot. Even players at low stakes can recognize this and will open up their range of calling hands.

I prefer to raise to 3 or 4 BBs. People don't notice this as much as when I go all in.

Bottom line: Going all in with no previous action decreases your folding equity a little every time you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And BB's love to over the top of your 3-4 BB raise. OOPs half my stack gone.

[/ QUOTE ]You fold when they come over the top of you? Calling an over the top raise is often the right play w/ any two unless you are deep stack vs deep stack. If you raise 3-4 BBs with half your stack, and BB pushes you are getting around 3 to 1. Frequently at lower levels, they are pushing any two and you have the best hand anyway.

[ger664]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're UTG, you should fold. On the button or in the blinds with no one else limping, you could push or at least raise. Usually if you push too frequently, you will get called by a wider range of hands. Going all in with no previous action screams weakness especially if you do it a lot. Even players at low stakes can recognize this and will open up their range of calling hands.

I prefer to raise to 3 or 4 BBs. People don't notice this as much as when I go all in.

Bottom line: Going all in with no previous action decreases your folding equity a little every time you do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And BB's love to over the top of your 3-4 BB raise. OOPs half my stack gone.

[/ QUOTE ]You fold when they come over the top of you? Calling an over the top raise is often the right play w/ any two unless you are deep stack vs deep stack. If you raise 3-4 BBs with half your stack, and BB pushes you are getting around 3 to 1. Frequently at lower levels, they are pushing any two and you have the best hand anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am never in this situation with less then 10BB. Above that been aware of stacks behind me and their sizes before I will contemplate a raise with my holdings. Raising 3-4 BB and then calling ATC from a re-shove because you are 3:1 with < 10 BB is FPS at its worst.

[Strickly Bidness]

they still need a hand to call you bro.

[weknowhowtolive]

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they still need a hand to call you bro.

[/ QUOTE ]I guess if you call stuff like K4s and A2o a hand...

And keep in mind, my average numbers are like 15/9/4 or so. My overall is 20/13/4.5...I dont look like some loose maniac, especially lately with the terrible cards I've been getting. Its just the level I play at the players might actually be a little "special."

[Strickly Bidness]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they still need a hand to call you bro.

[/ QUOTE ]I guess if you call stuff like K4s and A2o a hand...

And keep in mind, my average numbers are like 15/9/4 or so. My overall is 20/13/4.5...I dont look like some loose maniac, especially lately with the terrible cards I've been getting. Its just the level I play at the players might actually be a little "special."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you want to be called with A4 LOL. I mean you are in here asking about if you should push with A8 because you feel that you're more likely to be called due to your last 2 pushes but you aren't considering the upside of the problem. Its still a simple ICM problem here, but they just have looser ranges. If their ranges are SOOOOOOOOO lo0se then this is a good problem to have because they will look you up with [censored] like K8 and you will profit hugely when they make that call.

Cliff notes: PUsh it real good. You dont mind getting called EVEN on the bubble if you are 75% to win the hand.

Indy

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I would probably fold the A8s. But I really need more info... stack sizes, # of players in hand, blind size, etc.