5/10 VERY VERY Tricky blind on blind

[Kazuya]

i lost last hand and did not have time to reload yet..

i have 900 villian covers..

My image is probably a bit weak/tighter.. i have been following through with continuation bets but i have been losing most of the pots on later streets.. it might look like i've been getting pushed around a little bit.

folds to me in SB, i make it 40 with 88..

Villian in BB is a tricky, agressive player who is very good at hand reading and pouncing on weakness.. He is one of the people im trying to avoid at this table.

i make it 40 in sb with 88, villian in bb calls

flop (80) : 3h 5d 6c

i make my standard continuation bet of 60.. villian thinks awhile (any thoughts on this?) and calls

turn (200) : 3h 5d 6c 4c


I know this villian is very tricky/good.. I have no idea whats better here? c/c ? c/f? b/f? i was lost, and villian is the kind of player good enough to turn a6 into a bluff here if he thinks you have an overpair, keep in mind..

I still feel my hand has showdown value, after all he is very aggressive, i think if he had pair+combo draw on flop he would raise it up.. anyways i check/call 140 planning on reevaluating river (and yes i would sometimes take this line with a 7 in my hand)

river (480) : 3h 5d 6c 4c 8s

I pause awhile and check, he instantly shoves.. 660 to me

I'm on a stupid site where you have about 10 seconds, and all i can think in that time is

1) he knows its very highly unlikely I have a 7
2) he probably thinks i have an overpair, and with my image wouldn't he 1/2 pot for value with a 7 against someone he perceives as possibly weak/tight (and someone who has shown he can be pushed off hands? In his mind, it would be very unlikely i call with a 1pr hand here?
3) given my line of not betting the turn? (a huge mistake, thoughts please?) and given i c/c'd turn, and now checked river, i think i have to follow through with this line if this is how im going to play it? With 4 seconds left all i could think was that i basically turned my hand face up against a very good hand reader/player that does not expect to be called here..


thoughts??? especially on turn/river lines as PF/FLOP is standard for me.

[lanerunner]

Last time I called the all in, in a similar situation, he had the straight, I lay down the 88's and live to fight another day.

[Kazuya]

surely this hand is worth meriting discussion? its an unusual spot

cant anyone give reasons for and against bet/folding turn compared to check/calling?

[GoldenIP]

kazuya - (1) i agree, this is an interesting spot. (2) i don't think it's unusual [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

the immediate problem you have is that, based on your image, and the strength of this player, his position on you from the BB, i'm sure his range is AA-27o literally. i think this guy is thinking the cards are completely insignificant at this point.

having said that, i think you will be shown straight. he most definitely could be calling your PFR and flop bet with anthing pair +OESD e.g. 23, 57, 67 etc.

i've been thinking about a concept a lot that i began thinking about after something aba said. sometimes you just have to call in rough spots based purely on the principle that you don't want to be seen as too much of a pushover. you c/c turn and checked river, i kinda think you have to pay him off because, in future, he'll know he can double barrel from turn onwards and get you to laydown. i think you need to strike fear into your opponent even if it means calling light. what do you call it? metagaming or something?

i think it's real close based on your description. at a guess i think you will be shown a straight 40% of the time and a weaker holding/air 60% of the time.

it really is an interesting situation.

i keep asking myself why he'd insta-push. any reads on when he's done this previously? is he trying to make you think he's weak based on the theory that those who have strong holdings typically take their time to calculate their bet size.

ugh! i think you gotta call and insta-regret it but know that it's 1x buy-in well spent.

[NDHand]

You're HU OOP against a very tricky and aggressive villain, why not simply call PF, instead of building a big pot and setting yourself up for tough decisions?

[Must Warn Others]

this hand is near the top of your range here. if you feel like he ever has more than a straight (and you have to call some of the time), it might as well be with hands that may have slightly more equity than say JJ here, though they are largely the same hand.

[spino1i]

Advice for the turn decision:
Unforunately with your tight image, I suspect the villain is going to have a hard time beleiving you connected with that board in anyway. I probably just check/fold. A bet/fold is tempting but I feel like he has a big piece of this board/is trying to bluff you so often that its just not that great of a line. check/call is a very weak line and will not parse out whether or not he is bluffing as he will very frequently fire a second barrel with any of his turn bluffs.

Advice for the river decision:
This is probably a call, simply because of the possiblity he has some two pair or set (that was earlier in the hand a combo str8/pair draw) and thinks its good against your AA. Remember he thinks your a tight player and would probably not put you on a hand like 88. Yes he could have a str8, but the amount of times he's bluff or value-betting a weaker hand makes this a call imo.

[cts]

how tricky is he?

[trambopoline]

[ QUOTE ]
Last time I called the all in, in a similar situation, he had the straight, I CALL the 88's and REBUY to fight another day.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kazuya]

I'm still undecided on this hand.. what are peoples final opinions on call/fold river?

For how tricky he is.. he is the type of player that if you block (even for like 75% of pot) he will put you to all in if he doesn't think you have it.. i've seen him bluff giving people 3:1 in raised pots.. very smart/thinking player.

Someone said why not just call PF? cause 88 is a standard raise against anyone, even if i think they're better then me. limping preflop is out of question.


Given that he thinks i probably have a 1pair hand (99-AA) and looks like im trying to control pot/get to showdown i think it comes down to 2 questions

1) is he thinking on a level where he's seen me get pushed off hands before and thinks he can also do it to me? He likely views me as a less-thinking inferior player to him who might not make a big bet or call just based on money alone. (this is not actually the case, however it could appear that way)

2) Will he think im fed up and try to make a big call?

I came with the conclusion that given his likely image of me, he is good enough to be value pushing hands that I have beat.. This weighs me towards answering "yes" to question 2.. while i obviously think a 7 and air is in his range, i think lesser hands are also in his range.. And lastly another reason i believe for calling is even though i have shown him that i can lay down hands to pressure and am not a station. Given this, i think he would make a smaller bet against someone who he thinks has 1pr hand. And turning my hand face up on the turn/river line i think i'm resigned to finally make a stand..

any thoughts to this logic?