A10s, TPTK, board-pairing turn

[bhiatt]

5/10 game yesterday at Resorts EC. Table is weirdly aggressive, with 2 or 3 super-aggro types and 2 or 3 clueless fish raising hands like A2s from the blinds. I've been seated for 45 minutes or so, and while I'm not losing (yet) my image is passive and maybe even weak-tight--earlier, I folded AJs to a bet and a raise on a ragged flop, then the next hand picked up QQ, raised, then dumped it to a turn check raise on a two-king, drawless board.

3-4 limpers to me on the button, and I raise A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Both blinds call and we're off.

Flop is 10-7-3r, one heart. Checked to me, I bet, super-aggro in BB calls, unknown player who just sat down to my right calls.

Turn is a 3, completing the rainbow. Aggro player donks. Unknown raises. I fold.

Too passive? My plan was to raise the turn myself before the unknown player woke up. While I don't think the BB has a 3, it would suck to call 20 and then see him pop it to 30. And even if he doesn't, what about the unknown? Easy fold, right?

[Frond]

PF-Good

I don't know that I'm folding this one yet. Aggro could have anything at this point: Possibly trips or just 2 pair but right now you have 2 pair with a good kicker and the is pot is getting big. Unknown player may have your same 2 pair hand with a weaker kicker. I say at least peel one. Raise might be good as well.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
PF-Good

I don't know that I'm folding this one yet. Aggro could have anything at this point: Possibly trips or just 2 pair but right now you have 2 pair with a good kicker and the is pot is getting big. Unknown player may have your same 2 pair hand with a weaker kicker. I say at least peel one. Raise might be good as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet on this turn? I think that's a bit of a spew. Is there any read that aggro donk and unknown new player know each other? Normally, I'd say that new player has the goods, but if he and aggro player have played before, he might have the same read that you do and raise with a hand like 99 here to try to push you off of something. Of course that doesn't make sense either, now that I realize he doesn't have a read on you. It just seems like 3-betting here puts you in a spot where you'll have to call a cap and at least 1 bet on the river. If you call here, Aggro reraises and unknown caps, then you can probably safely fold as neither of them are likely to be playing back light with 2 opponents in the hand.

Just my rambling thoughts. Not sure if that makes sense or is even right.

[Utah]

I think it is an easy fold on the turn. You raise preflop and bet the flop. Then the board pairs and 2 players come alive before you with a bet and a raise. I don't think you have the odds to call for the very small percentage of the time you are ahead here. Also, obviously, you risk a reraise behind you.

[bhiatt]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally, I'd say that new player has the goods, but if he and aggro player have played before, he might have the same read that you do and raise with a hand like 99 here to try to push you off of something.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I was thinking the unknown might be up to. If I were him, had something like A10, K10, or 99, and knew the BB was likely FOS, I might raise myself figuring that the PF raiser would be hard-pressed to call even with an overpair. After all, if the BB had a 3, he would be more likely to checkraise. But if the unknown had a 3 (say, A3s) and figured I was drawing to 2 outs, why would he raise here himself, if it probably drives me out and maybe the BB, too?

If this is my suspicion, and a 3 bet is spewing, is calling 20 okay, then? Or fold, hopefully see the showdown and take the information for future reference?

I hate spots like this, especially in low-limit live games that used to be so passive.

[endo]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course that doesn't make sense either, now that I realize he doesn't have a read on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for the preflop raise. He's probably somehwat sure you don't have a 3.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

this is a sucky spot for sure, i would hate to fold the winner in a pretty big pot. if i got the sense that this unknown player looked somewhat decent at all, i would not fold because he could be raising here to try to muscle you out. if he looks like a typical loose passive low stakes player, i would lean more towards a fold, but not neccessarily so.

[James.]

based on your previous hands, and since you included them i assume some people have noticed, you need to consider not folding here. honestly, i might 3bet for a free showdown. calling just seems like we aren't maximizing our chances to drag the big pot and we're usually putting another BB in on the river anyway.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
based on your previous hands, and since you included them i assume some people have noticed, you need to consider not folding here. honestly, i might 3bet for a free showdown. calling just seems like we aren't maximizing our chances to drag the big pot and we're usually putting another BB in on the river anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your plan of action is there is a cap or a donk on the river? Both?

[bhiatt]

I'm thinking that a 3 bet might have been correct given my reads, with intentions to fold to a cap (?), call a river donk, but nothing more (?), and take a free showdown if either or both opponents called the 3 bet and checked to me on the river. Obviously, it didn't help that I had little information on the unknown, which is the main reason that I folded.

FWIW, the river was a 5, the BB donked and the unknown called. The BB showed 105o for a rivered 2 pair, and the unknown had my hand, A10o.