ATs in early to middle position - flop flush draw

[RabidTortuga]

Grunch. I probably take the same line. Have to call the river with an ok hand due to pot size. BB shows either K7 of hearts or 89 of hearts?

[sweeten2213]

I appreciate the replies. Does anyone care to hear what BB turned over?

[sweeten2213]

FWIW, I raised on the flop to both build the pot and maybe get out a hand or two out in case I didn't hit the flush, but hit My A or T. Do you think that is more important than keeping all customers, or no?

[Big Folder]

looks good to me.

[Thomas Newton]

You seem to have made the right decisions with the info you had so what the villain actually had doesn't much matter.

Having said that 1. Noting if he played something unexpected or played something expected in a funky way might help you in future hands.

Having said that 2. I'm guessing you were beat by an A/something that you were crushing PF.

nh - hope it went your way.

[Big Folder]

Im confused as to why people are against this flop 3-bet. Sure we likely will lose MP, but if he's going to drop for 3, he probably was going to fold if we just cold called anyways. The rest liked their hand enough to bet/raise/call so you could sort of count them in.

But mostly, this seems like protection + free card + value. If all call, then the raise was for value. If MP or BB now fold where they would have called for 2 or 1 more, then we might be protecting our overcards in this large pot. IF MP folds we get a free card.

Seems like the perfect place to 3-bet

[bung]

[ QUOTE ]
Im confused as to why people are against this flop 3-bet.

Seems like the perfect place to 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]

If we 3-bet the flop, we can hopefully lose MP2 and take position and go for the free card play. However, we're also now facing SB and BB with 2 bets cold. If they do drop out, your bet was not for value, plus you're going to be missing out on even more value if you do hit your flush and have only one or two callers.

IMHO, I think you usually get most of your value on a FD BEFORE your FD hits, and very little afterwards, since it such a "readable" hand. You can count 1.5 big bets on the river (in this situation) if you hit. OR, you can get 2 big bets in right now on the flop, PLUS the turn and river bets if you let everyone draw to lesser hands.

3-betting the flop works when you know everyone in the hand except MP2 is a calling station. Then I agree, you'd be getting the most value for your FD.

In OP's situation, he's spending 1 small bet to make less (if he hits). In the above mentioned scenario, you're saving 1 small bet to make more (if you hit).

With the nut FD, and good equity, OP maximizes the value of his hand by cold-calling this hand and not 3-betting.

[bung]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I raised on the flop to both build the pot and maybe get out a hand or two out in case I didn't hit the flush, but hit My A or T. Do you think that is more important than keeping all customers, or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need and want customers to help you build a pot. Otherwise you end up building it by yourself. You can't build a pot AND try to get customers out.

In this particular hand, against 4 other players and no pair, you want to play this hand primarily for Flush value because that's where the majority of your value lies. If you do hit tp, THEN you can play it for tp value (with flush, trips + two pair outs) and then RAISING would be for value (in this situation).

I'm not sure it makes sense to play for both Flush value and tp value at the same time. You might end up confusing your play.

[Grease]

This hand is totally standard and well played. I'm surprised at the amount of people calling for a cold-call on the flop. We're getting tons of value on our raise and might get the beloved turn free card (and it may clean up some outs), which was offered to us, but we declined to take because our hand was so strong is could improve via other ways than hitting the flush.

I'm intrigued at just calling the flop. I want to see how the debate pans out.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
But mostly, this seems like protection + free card + value.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're protecting ace-high when it has already been bet/raised in front of you?