4 bet with JJ - Page 2

Morrek · #11 03-31-2007, 02:08 PM

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Disagree. Playing a methodical game where you always do anything in any specific spots (well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts), is going to make you pretty readable dont you think?

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So you fold aces here too? I'm pretty sure he expects you to push aces here, so that'll definitely show him.

YanTree · #12 03-31-2007, 02:24 PM

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but since its a rather rare scenario

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how is this a rare scenario? possibly with the dead money in there but other than that this is pretty common.

LAG raises up front, hero (who has been playing back at him) three bets. LAG 4 bets him and puts hero to a test, push or fold.

I'm sure the LAG faces these spots a lot. If we are always folding everything but AA and KK here, he will pick up on that. Then we become his bitch.

On the other hand if we always shove JJ+ here he will figure that out.

I dont think any one hand can be analyzed in a vacuum as you guys are suggesting we should do with this hand. You have to take each hand in context with all of the others you will ever play with this player.

Given that, in this spot, if you faced it 100 times, IMO you could never do any one action each time and come out with the maximum EV in the end.

YanTree · #13 03-31-2007, 02:27 PM

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Disagree. Playing a methodical game where you always do anything in any specific spots (well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts), is going to make you pretty readable dont you think?

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So you fold aces here too? I'm pretty sure he expects you to push aces here, so that'll definitely show him.

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(well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts)

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Eagles · #14 03-31-2007, 02:29 PM

Yan,
You are wrong. How do we decide when to push and when to fold? Do we flip a weighted coin?

YanTree · #15 03-31-2007, 02:32 PM

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Yan,
You are wrong. How do we decide when to push and when to fold? Do we flip a weighted coin?

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Is this some kind of a joke or what? This is a very basic concept.

How do you decide when to bluff and when to not? When to c-bet the flop? Surely you don't second barrel everytime do you? You dont c-bet 100% of the time right?

Andy Beal had his watch rigged to become a Random Number Generator. I suppose you could do that. Or you could just guesstimate it like everbody else.

Morrek · #16 03-31-2007, 02:34 PM

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Disagree. Playing a methodical game where you always do anything in any specific spots (well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts), is going to make you pretty readable dont you think?

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So you fold aces here too? I'm pretty sure he expects you to push aces here, so that'll definitely show him.

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(well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts)

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we're not calling. but you get my point?

YanTree · #17 03-31-2007, 02:35 PM

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Disagree. Playing a methodical game where you always do anything in any specific spots (well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts), is going to make you pretty readable dont you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you fold aces here too? I'm pretty sure he expects you to push aces here, so that'll definitely show him.

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(well besides maybe like calling all-ins when you have the nuts)

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we're not calling. but you get my point?

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lol its the exact same thing as calling as he is never folding if we push.

Morrek · #18 03-31-2007, 02:38 PM

ok you dont get my point then.

YanTree · #19 03-31-2007, 02:40 PM

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ok you dont get my point then.

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your point was that i didnt include every situation in parentheses that was a no-brainer. i instead summed it up as 'like calling all-ins with the nuts'. next time i promise to add 'or shoving all in with AA and you are in a clear push or fold situation'

MDMA · #20 03-31-2007, 03:23 PM

Eh, in practise this is either a push or a fold at all times, while in theory it is not. Have you guys even heard of something called an optimal strategy which is also a mixed strategy?

If not, let me tell you this: In almost all poker situations we can convey, doing one thing and one thing only with a RANGE (not a HAND) will be terribly exploitable by our opponent. You don't have to go further than to one street [0,1]-games to realize this, where, if you fold jacks in this instance he will be able to bluff you more than he should be able to, and if you start calling all the time he will never fold.

As for an answer, in almost all cases of todays poker, you WILL have a correct answer that is NOT a mixed stragey in these situations.

Yet, what I hate more than this [censored] is the kind of [censored] that YanTree is trying to pull; he's acting like it's natural to do x and y some portion of the time and he's telling us exactly that. Well, woop-di-[censored]-do, everyone who has at least some understanding of game theory optimal playing will realize this, but if you can't quantify this into ACTUAL ranges and percentages (which you probably cant), then shut the [censored] up about mentioning stuff that is crystal clear, but which still has no practical application as of today.

M'kay?