Weird 30-60 that I know you won't like but I'll still post...

[Josh W]

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I think keeping the pot small preflop with KK and then still putting money in with an ace on the flop smells bad.

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Would you EVER smoothcall preflop? Those times that you did smoothcall, would you just check/fold the flop?

J

[PokerBob]

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KK in the BB. Decent player openraises in mid/late position. Calling station calls. I call in BB w/ KK. I have KK in the BB.

I know you'll say to threebet, and if the SB had called, I woulda. But with the calling station where he was, I felt I could make more money by smooth calling preflop and checkraising the flop. Unless the flop comes like:

Flop comes AT4, rainbow. I check, first guy raises, calling station calls, I call.

Turn is a 6. Checked around.

River is a queen. I bet. Decent player raises. Calling station folds.

And since I can't see him raising KQ on the river, I fold.

Josh

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your plan gets 2SB in preflop and 2SB on the flop (Assuming things go the way you want). doesn't 3betting preflop and betting the flop accomplish the same thing? please help me see the light.

[TheBusiness]

I think one good reason you should be three-betting preflop is that you will definitely get two small bets because there is no way either of the villains is folding preflop for one more bet. But if you just call, and the flop is favorable to you (i.e. most flops without an ace, this flop just happens to have an ace) but somehow unfavorable to them, there is a chance that one or both of them folds on the flop and you miss the bets that you could have made preflop. Smooth calling with a big pocket pair is usually best heads up when you can get in the extra bet or bets on the turn, rather than on the flop. In a 3-way hand you are almost always losing equity by not reraising before the flop. Also, I agree with everyone else that if you are going to just smoothcall preflop and keep the pot small, its a great spot for getting out cheaply when that ace hits.

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i know you mean well, but i highly doubt the most profitable way to play this hand is to just call preflop. feel free to experiment though!

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As a (very) rough rule of thumb, if I'm closing the action and it's going to be heads up, I'll just call (slowplay), thinking that the one lost SB will be easily made up throughout the course of the hand. If it's multiway (3 or more opponents), I'll threebet, because I'm not convinced i can make up those 3 SBs throughout the hand.

If it's 2 opponents, I go back and forth. Like i said, just given the layout (me, then decent, then calling station), I really thought I could make up the 2 SBs pretty easily on favorable flops (not to mention save bets on a bad flop).

I mean, if the flop comes 873, and i checkraise the field, lots of good things can happen. If I threebet preflop, betting the flop will reduce these "good things".

If the calling station was better, I would have threebet preflop.

I'm rambling. My takehome point is....I'm not saying my way is best. I hope somebody can explain to me clearly why it ISN'T best. I currently think it's close (In other words, I don't know what to do).

That's about it....

Josh

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[Josh W]

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KK in the BB. Decent player openraises in mid/late position. Calling station calls. I call in BB w/ KK. I have KK in the BB.

I know you'll say to threebet, and if the SB had called, I woulda. But with the calling station where he was, I felt I could make more money by smooth calling preflop and checkraising the flop. Unless the flop comes like:

Flop comes AT4, rainbow. I check, first guy raises, calling station calls, I call.

Turn is a 6. Checked around.

River is a queen. I bet. Decent player raises. Calling station folds.

And since I can't see him raising KQ on the river, I fold.

Josh

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your plan gets 2SB in preflop and 2SB on the flop (Assuming things go the way you want). doesn't 3betting preflop and betting the flop accomplish the same thing? please help me see the light.

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I'm thinking that by threebetting preflop, leading at the flop will make my opponents fold. I think this only gets 3 SBs in.

Plus, there's the whole "checkraise the flop, get threebet by PFR, checkraise the turn" possibility, etc, that lead to larger rewards. I think threebetting preflop really lowers your ceiling.

Josh

[PokerBob]

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KK in the BB. Decent player openraises in mid/late position. Calling station calls. I call in BB w/ KK. I have KK in the BB.

I know you'll say to threebet, and if the SB had called, I woulda. But with the calling station where he was, I felt I could make more money by smooth calling preflop and checkraising the flop. Unless the flop comes like:

Flop comes AT4, rainbow. I check, first guy raises, calling station calls, I call.

Turn is a 6. Checked around.

River is a queen. I bet. Decent player raises. Calling station folds.

And since I can't see him raising KQ on the river, I fold.

Josh

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your plan gets 2SB in preflop and 2SB on the flop (Assuming things go the way you want). doesn't 3betting preflop and betting the flop accomplish the same thing? please help me see the light.

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I'm thinking that by threebetting preflop, leading at the flop will make my opponents fold.

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at this point the pot has 10.67SB in it, so they may be tied to it.

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Plus, there's the whole "checkraise the flop, get threebet by PFR, checkraise the turn" possibility, etc, that lead to larger rewards. I think threebetting preflop really lowers your ceiling.


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OK. I understand this, but I heard/read somewhere that big pairs make all (or a large portion) of their money preflop, where they likely have the largest edge. Is this wrong, or are you simply forgoing this edge to exploit things on the bigger streets? Also, if the original raise had opened in an earlier position, would you still have played the hand this way? Or were you assuming that he was opening light and thus would be much more exploitable later?

[flawless_victory]

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I think keeping the pot small preflop with KK and then still putting money in with an ace on the flop smells bad.

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well, he did have the best hand.
as fior the river, that fold is really obvious, he has KJ or QQ, mb possibly a big hand that he was trying to CR 4th with...

[SA125]

Considering all the hands you play online, and won't play this hand the same way everytime, there's nothing wrong with this line in this hand. I think the amount of bets you can make up post flop can be underrated.

One thing I can see doing different is donking the turn. That'll throw things for a loop and make them easier to understand.