Hmm, let's call this a marginal 87o hand

[Scorcho]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys have preflop charts burned into your brains or something

i'd wager I make more with 87o in this spot than with KTo folded to me on the button against two expert players in the blinds. but I raise that and no one says a damn thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say anything about playing 87o. I just think the limp with it in a short-handed game is just silly.

[Genesis]

Preflop is a losing play IMHO. HU vs this maniac I would like it much better. If you can't get it HU, which your read on BB indicates, then it's a fold everytime. And probably even if you can get it HU. I stoved his preflop range (the bottom 40% of his 70%) vs 87o and he has 56% equity HU. You may be able to make up this gap with dead blinds and better postflop play, possibly. But he's going to kill you on value the times you are beat, and you may not be able to extract full value when ahead.

My preflop play in this spot would involve pretending it was folded to you on the button. Would you steal with 87o then? That's just outside of my range against loose blinds.

Flop, I call and re-evaluate the turn.

[sweetjazz]

Preflop is meh, but not a big deal. I think folding or raising is better than calling though. If he bluffspews and also overplays marginal hands, then 87o should probably go in the muck. Raising can be write against some loose players, but it's not so great against this guy (so actually calling may be better than raising here).

Given that you limped into this pot, the flop is a fold (though it is close). Calling is the other good option, while raising is just bad because you're bloating the pot with a hand that often will not merit seeing a showdown.

[jba]

"But he's going to kill you on value the times you are beat, and you may not be able to extract full value when ahead."

I have no idea why you think this is true. I play better than him and I have position.

[dano]

Scorcho,

It would be more helpful if you elaborated with some explicit reasons on why you think 87o is a bad limp. I personally like it because SB is a TAG, so will not often raise without fairly good hands, and if he does, you have position. BB is loose and passive, so BB will not often raise. And with a loose passive and maniac in the pot, you have good implied odds when you hit.

I don't like to raise because it costs more. It bloats the pot making the bad plays the maniac and the loose passive will make into not as bad plays. And maniacs love to reraise and bluff in raised pots.

Against a different player I might raise, but against this guy, and with the SB and BB as they are, I like a limp. Of course, I may be thinking about this incorrectly, but simply just saying "you are wrong" does not make it so.

[Genesis]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea why you think this is true. I play better than him and I have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for me it would be tough. A maniac's style tends to limit the advantage of position. You have 87o, it's not like you can call him down and catch a bluff with 8 high.

Who will win the majority of the hands when neither of you catches anything? Your hand has no showdown value without pairing up. That will be a lot of small losses.

Who will extract the most value when you both pair up on very scary boards? Your hand is weak, if the board is 8JQK2, can you find a river value bet? I bet he can more often than you.

I don't feel I am being entirely clear, but hopefully it makes sense.

[dano]

I think you may be right that folding may be better on the flop, but like you say it seems close.

You are pretty vulnerable to redraws even if you do improve or have the best hand. If you do have the best hand, you aren't going to like that many turn cards other than those that improve you to a set or two pair. On the other hand, you have good position relative to the initial bettor on the turn giving you decent implied odds.

[PokerSparky]

Preflop whatever.

I can't fold this flop closing the action, call and fold turn UI.

[justin]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys have preflop charts burned into your brains or something

[/ QUOTE ]


calling=terrible preflop... I quote everything jba said so far

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Your hand has no showdown value without pairing up.

[/ QUOTE ]

neither does his!