The feminization of todays youth

[guids]

El D,


exactly.

[kidcolin]

NT,

True, there are non-violent solutions to problems... but not so much for violent problems. If you get punched in the face, the best solution is to stick up for yourself.

I was in two fights when I was younger, both minor skirmishes (boys being boy) type things). I've been threatened and goaded into many more fights, maybe 7 or 8 more. I always found ways to avoid those, but by dealing with it head on, not running and telling the teacher. However, had I been hit, I'd have hit back. The point: my parents taught me to deal with things head on and avoid fighting when possible.

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]
NT, OTB, pretty much said it. And really I think this is where the big difference is in regards to my OP. Call my cynical, but there will ALWAYS be people out there willing to throw the first punch, the psychos of the world, be it the douche bag bully on the playground, some nazi's invading poland, or a co-worker trying to put one over on you, we need to teach kids at a young age that you need to fight back sometimes.

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guids, you don't have to teach kids to fight. they'll fight on their own. the difficulty is that there are a lot of situations where a kid needs to stick up for himself WITHOUT hurting someone else, and if you don't teach them better ways to deal with it, they're not going to be able to do it.

[Skoob]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a good point. there are plenty of solutions to problems that are not violent.

the school-based program i work in actually has 'tattling' as one of its major no-nos. we are trying to force kids to deal with each other.

[/ QUOTE ]
It may come down to what is defined as "violence" and I think part of the problem is how women define violence as opposed to men (the majority, not trying to over-generalize although I'm probably guilty anyway.)

True story, I'm in 5th grade:
Me and a friend stop at the drinking fountain between classes/during a break. He's at the fountain and puts his thumb over the spout, spraying me with water. I punch him in the arm. He punches me back (in the arm). Teacher turns the corner and we're suspended for 'fighting.'

Granted, we're not supposed to be screwing around in the halls, spraying each other with water or whatever. The school had a special rule for 'fighting' and we were suspended. Were these acts violent? No one was harmed. We laughed through the ordeal. But this teacher viewed the exchange as violent.

How is it violence when two 10-year-old kids are screwing around and punching each other in the arm between classes?

There's violence and there is horsing-around. The horsing-around tends to get pegged as violence. This is the problem that I have.

[onthebutton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NT, OTB, pretty much said it. And really I think this is where the big difference is in regards to my OP. Call my cynical, but there will ALWAYS be people out there willing to throw the first punch, the psychos of the world, be it the douche bag bully on the playground, some nazi's invading poland, or a co-worker trying to put one over on you, we need to teach kids at a young age that you need to fight back sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

guids, you don't have to teach kids to fight. they'll fight on their own. the difficulty is that there are a lot of situations where a kid needs to stick up for himself WITHOUT hurting someone else, and if you don't teach them better ways to deal with it, they're not going to be able to do it.

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Good parents don't tell their kids to start a violent situation if they don't get their way, have a disagreement, etc. Likewise, I don't think it's bad parenting to tell your kid, "Look, never start a fight. Violence isn't the way to solve problems. Neither is taking a beating. If someone hits you, you should defend yourself."

Say you're taking a beating. How do you stick up for yourself without using violence?

[jaybee_70]

guids,

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I just fail to see how there can be that much of a physical difference between 5th graders.

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Spend some time in 5th grade classroom. The variance can be huge.

Joe

[Dids]

NT and gump have said most of what I've said in this thread.

I think guids and co

1- overstate the degree to which this occurs by a large margin

2- make incorrect assumptions about this being a negative thing

3- need to realize that it is 2007 and we're not a hunter/gatherer society anymore.

WRT to Football vs. Soccer:

"3. It's cheaper to organize and play, less equipment needed, less specialized, etc."

This is huge. Especially for younger kids.

Do I think it's silly if kids can't play footbal if they want to? Yes. Do I think that's part of some larger problem that eventually means we'll be overthrown by Canada or something? No.

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NT, OTB, pretty much said it. And really I think this is where the big difference is in regards to my OP. Call my cynical, but there will ALWAYS be people out there willing to throw the first punch, the psychos of the world, be it the douche bag bully on the playground, some nazi's invading poland, or a co-worker trying to put one over on you, we need to teach kids at a young age that you need to fight back sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

guids, you don't have to teach kids to fight. they'll fight on their own. the difficulty is that there are a lot of situations where a kid needs to stick up for himself WITHOUT hurting someone else, and if you don't teach them better ways to deal with it, they're not going to be able to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good parents don't tell their kids to start a violent situation if they don't get their way, have a disagreement, etc. Likewise, I don't think it's bad parenting to tell your kid, "Look, never start a fight. Violence isn't the way to solve problems. Neither is taking a beating. If someone hits you, you should defend yourself."

Say you're taking a beating. How do you stick up for yourself without using violence?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll use my personal experience to answer this question (and I think my experience is fairly unique). There were times when I got hit as a kid. Between the ages of 11 and 16, when I was really seriously religious, I literally would not hit someone.

I cannot think of any way in which my life is worse because I got beat up a few times as a 6th-8th grader. If I had chosen to get into a fight with some of the people who hit me (and we are talking about sporadic incidents here) I might very well have gotten into a lot more trouble. I was a pretty athletic kid; there's a decent chance I would have actually injured someone. If not, I might very well still have faced disciplinary consequences.

I'm happy with my life. I'm a competitive person with healthy self-esteem. I had parents who supported me, taught me alternatives to fighting and encouraged me to be responsible for myself. I didn't turn into a submissive, deviant or 'feminine' person as a result of NEVER FIGHTING during a major part of my childhood. I also didn't have a problem defending myself when my life was actually threatened (which will almost never happen to most of the people we are talking about here).

[NT!]

Skoob,

Your scenario is a relevant one. I think it's a behavior management issue and a problem with reactive, punitive policies (rather than proactive, pro-social policies).

[Brent Musburger]

You and NT VASTLY overestimate how evolved as a society we are.

If there were a major natural disaster or terrorist attack or something, that cut off vital services such as electricty, water, or food for an decent period of time, you'd see just how animal human being still are.

People would not be forming lines and waiting patiently for the resources. They'd be pummeling and killing each other for them.

Oh, and Brady Quinn rules.