150/300 stud high reraise or call on 3rd?

[electrical]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. The fact is they bricked. They are going to see 5th whether you bet or not, and they will definitely appreciate being able to see it for free.

On 5th if they improve their draw or make a pair, they are calling. If not they are folding.

The time to not bloat is on 3rd (but not in this particular hand) or on 4th when someone appears to have improved their draw.

When the draws have bricked is the ideal time to get more money in.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it is optimistic to put all these players on draws, given the action on Third. Tens could well be in third place here with chances of improvement slim.

Fourth street was bad for Hero, and he should not be eager to pay extra for it.

[Andy B]

I'm assuming a $25 ante and $50 bring-in. You should include that information with every hand.

I think third is a call. I would like the three-bet if you thought that you could get it heads-up. I don't think that the fish is folding. The Eight probably isn't either. I'd just call and hope to knock someone out later.

Fourth came down pretty badly. I wouldn't be looking to put too much more money into this pot. I would check and hope for a miracle. I would actually be more inclined to bet on fifth than on fourth. Someone might actually fold on fifth.

[TStoneMBD]

right now, i forgot what the ante structure was in this game. it was either 50 ante-50 bringin or 25ante-25 bringin.

i expect the Q to have a pair of queens. im not sure why everyone thinks the queen should auto bet 4th. when i reraise 3rd it definitely looks like i beat a pair of queens.

everyone seems to think i want to get it heads up, and im not so sure i agree. i mean, i know the player has queens almost for sure, so i have to improve to win. why would i want to chase out all the random pairs drawing to worse twopairs when i need to make twopair myself? it seems logical to let them in. of course, i want to chase out anyone who has correct odds to draw to 3flushes and the like.

i like the idea of getting it heads up to get dead money in the pot, but as mentioned, it almost seems better to keep the other players in. 3betting on 3rd still seems like a good play even if i know the other 2 wont fold because my hand should have positive equity. in fact, i think id rather have the other 2 players in if they have weaker pairs.

on later streets i dont think i should be raising to force the other players out, i should be trying to keep them in.


maybe the better way to play the hand is to just call on 3rd if i thought reraising would fold the other players, and reraise if i thought i could bloat the pot and keep the others in chasing worse pairs.

anyone disagree with this?

[grandgnu]

So wait, you want to get it heads-up when you're behind and just hope you can represent something better than Queens?

And even if you improve to two pair, that's not saying the Queens can't do the same.

In addition, you say you want to keep the other players in (the 5 and 8 showing). But you have no way of knowing what they're drawing too. It could be straights, flushes, trips, etc.

So you run the risk of getting yourself caught in a situation where you are up against three opponents with an inflated pot that's difficult to get away from, and you're behind the majority of the time.

If you truly believe the Q showing has a pair of Queens or better, then I would either fold 3rd street or just call.

Your hidden flush/straight cards are decent, and you have a shot at Aces up. No sense building a big pot when you're behind on the off-chance you will improve. As usually you won't (or you will but so will your opponent) and you may have to dump on later streets.

I would just call the raise on 3rd. On 4th street, with some of your needed cards showing up in others hands, I would not be betting, and I would probably be folding to any bet there.

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe the better way to play the hand is to just call on 3rd if i thought reraising would fold the other players, and reraise if i thought i could bloat the pot and keep the others in chasing worse pairs.

anyone disagree with this?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, I disagree strongly. Tens with a big kicker does extremely crappy multiway. In fact, if I wasn't quite confident that I could get it heads up by 5th I'd prefer folding 3rd - regardless of what I thought they held - even if I knew the Q was only a 3flush or a semi live 3 straight. I don't want anyone in chasing anything - it sucks way too much equity out of the pot.

[TStoneMBD]

isnt it incorrect for them to chase making it +ev for me???

[Bartholow]

It may not be incorrect for them to chase, especially if it really is 50 ante and 50 bring-in. Moreover, even if it's incorrect for them to chase it doesn't necessarily help you: weak chasers CAN in fact TAKE equity from you and give it to the "best draw". This is an example of Morton's Theorem - not sure if anyone talks about that anymore, or whether this pot gets so big so fast that it doesn't matter.

At any rate your hand is certainly playable on 3rd, and if you think you can get people out I think you should do so, definitely not be trying to keep them in. If you don't think you can get them out, I'd just call and wait to try to get them out later assuming things go well.

Of course they didn't go well, 4th street was really awful for you. I'd definitely just check here.

Maybe someone can run some comprehensive twodimes sims to see how your hand does headsup vs. multiway etc.

[blumpkin]

I'm looking to fold this hand on 3rd, even with the relatively high ante.

[AvoDrake]

Here is one scenario to show 4 way action with 2nd best pair and dead cards is not a good scenario against bigger pair and two other guys with smaller pairs that are live:

Assumptions: seat one and two with pairs and not on draw:

Seat 1 has pocket pair 9 9 5 10 (Pair is live with 3 flush)
Seat 2 has 8s with K kicker K 8 8 6 (Pair and kicker live)
Seat 3 has Qs with 4 four in the hole 4 Q Q A

Heads up equity if two smaller pair fold on 5th Steet:
Qs with Ace kicker - 65%
10s with Ace kicker 35%

4 Way action equity if 2 pair play on 5th:
Pair 9's live with 3 flush 24%
Pair 8's live with live K Kicker 27%
Pair of Qs semi-dead A Kicker 30%
Pair of 10s with semi dead pair and kicker 18%

[TStoneMBD]

ive never heard of mortons theorem but im very aware of its principles. an example would be a 3 handed limit holdem game where the SB smoothcalls the buttons raise. hes making a mistake but hes giving the equity of that mistake to the bb and taking it away from the button.

avo: thanks for the sim. didnt realize our equity was so small, but that seems logical since alot of our cards are dead now. however, i think thats about the absolute best that the other 2 players in the hand could have, unless they twopaired on 4th of course.