Are (suited) connectors always an implied odds hand?

[TanukiTen]

The way i understood it so far, AK or AJ for example is a negative implied odds hand, because if the flop hits me, i won't have many callers(if they fold correctly with draws or weaker hands).

And (suited) Connectors are implied odds hands, because i get more money in the pot, when i make my draw.

To my question:
Now, if i have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for example and the flop comes 4 5 6 rainbow, a lot of people will smell a draw and fold and my implied odds go down the drain. similar if i flop a flush or flushdraw.

So does that mean, that implied odds hands can also turn out to be reverse implied odd hands?
Or is it just that in generall i will get my implied odds and just in very obvious situations not.

Or did I get the principle wrong anyway?

And where is the line or grey area between implied odd hands and reverse IO Hands?

Thx for any help

[templar999]

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, so bear with me if this answer sounds somewhat roundabout.

I don't think it's particularly useful to classify hands as implied odds hands or RIO hands. Implied odds and RIO are just names Sklansky et al have applied a concept of poker in regards to hands with general characteristics in certain situations. Maybe a couple of examples:

9 handed 5/10 NL. Stacks are deep at 100x. Players are a typical mix. Solid player UTG raises 4x BB with what is probably a big pair or AK/AQ. You have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the button. You decide to call not because your current odds are favorable but because your implied odds are. You are risking $40 for a chance to win his entire stack of $1000 if you hit just right. If you dont, you will gladly release and lose only $40. In this situation, your hand of 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is an "implied odds" hand.

An orbit later, UTG raises again. This time you decide to call with aces. Not only are your current odds good, but your implied odds are good as well. Your deception with your aces preflop gives you a good chance to take his entire stack if the flop hits both of you just right. In that sense, your aces are also an "implied odds" hand.

As for your example with the 78o and flopping a straight. It's not very useful to think of it as an "implied odds" hand where your implied odds have gone down the drain. You're right, according to the definition of implied odds, you have none since you cant improve. If you have two opponents, one with a flush draw, one with a set, you'd have to dodge a lot of outs. In that sense, you're giving RIO. Your "implied odds" hand preflop has all of a sudden become an "RIO" hand on the flop. Your hand is really no different than having KQo on a Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop with three opponents with a flush draw, straight draw, and middle pair with an overcard kicker. Your KQo was a "RIO" hand preflop and an "RIO" on the flop. The distinction between the two is not only arbitrary but entirely unhelpful.

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And where is the line or grey area between implied odd hands and reverse IO Hands?


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There really is no grey area or line between the two. They are just concepts. It's more important to understand the concept and be able to recognize the situation when it arises. Hope this helps.

[TanukiTen]

Yes, that was exactly what i meant.
Thx for your answer. I think i got it

I was wondering though, when watching stoxtrader play, he'd for example say with A3 that he would'nt play it in this certain situation cause it's an RIO hand, so i thought there might be certain hands that qualify as (more) IO and some more as RIO...

[alphatmw]

i think suited hands are more RIO than connectors. flush draws are the first things people notice when they hit, but straights are almost always deceptive.

[Dov]

An easier way to picture the problem is like this:

If you expect your hand to beat a large field of callers, then it us an implied odds hand. The simple explanation is that you will need to get luckier than the current pot odds are offering, but you will likely be able to extract bets from the other hands, which leads us to...

The reverse implied odds hands. Basically when your hand has reverse implied odds, you don't know how much it will cost you to find out whether your hand is good or not. It is a weak made hand like an overpair or TPTK.

The most frequently cited examples of implied odds hands are suited connectors and small pairs looking to flop a set. The immediate odds are pretty much never there in the first place, so the implied odds from future action is taken into account.

The most frequently cited examples of reverse implied odds hands are big offsuit cards like offsuit broadways. The worst of these are AT, AJ, KT, KJ, and QJ. It is very easy for you to call a raise with one of these hands and be outkicked by the raiser. You are getting reverse implied odds b/c you will have to call several bets just to find out if your hand is even any good.

I hope this helps you to understand it better.

Just don't forget that your hand can develop implied odds or reverse implied odds as it progresses. The severity of the effects of these changes are based on game type, opponent skill, and effective stack sizes, among other things.

[RobNottsUk]

Implied odds, are where you pay to see next card, and can expect some pay off when you hit, but will not pay off when you miss.

UTG has AA, you have 66 on button, then you may call, and expect to win a huge pot if you catch your set.

Draws tend to benefit from implied odds (improving the pot odds) so long as they are deceptive, and you expect to get paid. Strong players, may need a good 2nd best hand to cooperate with your strategy. Rocks are most unlikely to cooperate, as they are very tight and very passive, so offer poor implied odds. Also as they only bet with solid hands, they receive poor implied odds.

Reverse implied odds, are the expected total pot size at river in proportion to your contribution.

So say you raise it up with KQ, get 2 callers, flop is K87 on a 2-flush board, you bet and now face a call and a large re-raise from late position, then are in a reverse implied odds situation.

1) Someone may have, a set or AK
2) You may lose to a flush or a str8

You don't know where you are, and you won't know, if you're ahead you're easily outdrawn. Furthermore if you are ahead, your opponents are likely to get away from it cheaply.

The pot may be $200, with $125 to call now, but your stack is $500, so you estimate that your reverse implied odds are actually something like $500:$1075 (2 opponents, both AI likely). If you raise, then KT/KJ folds without paying off, but you will pay off a better made hand, or someone may force you to fold, semi-bluffing a good draw.

The 'implied' odds v 'reverse-implied' odds hands, are really a category based on deceptiveness. Folk expect someone to play AJ/KQ, but not necessarily 75s.

[Dov]

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Reverse implied odds, are the expected total pot size at river in proportion to your contribution.

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This is actually defined as Effective Odds in TOP.

[RobNottsUk]

Nope, effective odds are the cost of pursuing a draw, taking into account future bets. Some that you gain when you hit, and save when you miss.

Short of quoting ToP which I don't have handy, I cannot explain more clearly this poorly understood concept.

But it is effectively, you think you have best hand, the pot is X, and it's going to cost you Y to see the showdown, you don't know where you are, and your opponents know (most likely if they're ahead or behind). It is a Risk/Reward ratio.

[Dov]

From your earlier post:

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Reverse implied odds, are the expected total pot size at river in proportion to your contribution.

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From this post:

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Nope, effective odds are the cost of pursuing a draw, taking into account future bets.

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According to your definitions, I don't see any difference at all between implied odds, reverse implied odds, and effective odds.

The way I understand it is as follows:

Implied odds is the amount of money that you expect to win from your opponent(s) by the end of the hand in addition to what is already in the pot if you make the hand you are hoping to make.

Reverse implied odds is the amount of money that your opponents can expect to win from you by the end of the hand in addition to what is already in the pot if they make the hand they are trying to make.

Effective odds is the total amount of money you put or will put in the pot compared with the amount you will win from the pot that you did not contribute yourself.

If this is not correct, then someone please explain why.

[PantsOnFire]

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From your earlier post:

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Reverse implied odds, are the expected total pot size at river in proportion to your contribution.

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From this post:

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Nope, effective odds are the cost of pursuing a draw, taking into account future bets.

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According to your definitions, I don't see any difference at all between implied odds, reverse implied odds, and effective odds.

The way I understand it is as follows:

Implied odds is the amount of money that you expect to win from your opponent(s) by the end of the hand in addition to what is already in the pot if you make the hand you are hoping to make.

Reverse implied odds is the amount of money that your opponents can expect to win from you by the end of the hand in addition to what is already in the pot if they make the hand they are trying to make.

Effective odds is the total amount of money you put or will put in the pot compared with the amount you will win from the pot that you did not contribute yourself.

If this is not correct, then someone please explain why.

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Your definitions are correct but the actual odds are the ratios with the amount you win (or lose for RIO) being the numerator.