play it or dump it?

[wackjob]

8/16 6-max.

I know that the rule of thumb in O8 is if you aren't drawing to the nuts, dont play. This is SH, and my opponents are total donkeys. CO here is a 54/11/.8 super fish that I've been robbing all night. SB is a 34/11/1.2 half decent player.

So there are 2 limpers and I'm OTB with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and I limp in. SB comes along as well.

FLOP: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets outs, 2 folds, CO calls, I call.

TURN: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets, CO calls, I call.

RIVER: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets, CO raises, I call, SB calls.


pick me apart and prove how badly I played!

[hoyasaxa]

hand is marginal to begin with and belonged in the muck with two limpers behind you.

call on flop is ok with the flush draw

I dont like calling on the turn. youre not drawing to the nut flush and all of your opponents should have straights.

ill bet you got lost money on the river too, since everyone had the same low but someone had a straight to 6

all of this is cured by folding preflop

[SweetLuckyMe]

Nothing terribly horrible - kind of too bad to be in a hand and never be in a position to raise. That's kind of the trouble with those type hands. It's probably ev neutral in that position played correctly.

[Heron]

The turn call seems suspicious to me. The call gives us 1:6.

What about our outs?

The Ad should on average give the half of the low and a 50 percent chance to win the high. So I count this out as 1/2.

The 3 other aces give on average half of the low and usually nothing of the high. So I count these as 1/4 each.

The 8 diamonds apart from the ace give a 50 percent chance to win the high and usually nothing of the low. So I count these as 1/4 each.

The 4 remaining deuces and treys make a fullhouse and should win the high more often than not. We'll have no low then. So I count these as 1/3 out each.

The 4 sixes are outs to a probably worthless 6 high straight. I count these as 1/8 each.

So we have some 5 outs giving us something between 1:8 and 1:9.

Hence I think it's a fold at the turn but I may have been too pessimistic weighing the outs.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that the rule of thumb in O8 is if you aren't drawing to the nuts, dont play.

[/ QUOTE ]Wackjob - That rule is kind of like "i before e except after c" in spelling. It's not a bad rule of thumb because it usually works pretty well, but rules of thumb don't always hold true - neither in spelling nor in poker.

As to the particular situation in your post, your starting hand is not a very good one - a bit below marginal in my estimation. However, I might play it on the button if I had not played a hand in a while and it was a passive game. You mainly need a board with an ace plus two other low ranks, but not a deuce or trey - and with the ace and at least one other low card appearing on the flop. And then you're usually only playing for half the pot.

At any rate, you see the flop and then the flop is 245 with two diamonds (and you have the fourth nut diamond draw).

Thus you have ended up with a rather thin flop fit. You're drawing for an ace, but even if you get one, you have to expect to get at least quartered for low. If the turn or river is a six, you might win for high or low or scoop. If you get a diamond, you might win for high.

It's kind of like placing a bet on a roulette table. You might win. If you do win, it doesn't prove anything, except that it is possible to beat the odds on any one gambling wager.

And then the board proceeds to end up a wheel. Yuk. Now you have a wheel as does everyone else with two wheel cards, and in addition, somebody is likely to have a six or seven high straight.

You might win, scooping the pot, or you might get an eighth or even less of the pot. Doesn't prove much - only one of various possible outcomes will actually occur.

Once you see this particular flop with the hand it's kind of hard to fold, and that pinpoints the problem with playing this hand. Then the turn keeps you in, and you finally get your ace on the river. I'd say you were lucky to get the ace on the river.

Kind of interesting to have the board end up as a wheel. Did it work out well for you?

[ QUOTE ]
pick me apart and prove how badly I played!

[/ QUOTE ]What's to prove? Do you think you played badly?

I'm trying to figure out why you posted this. Perhaps SB had A3YZ, was frustrated, and criticized your play. Is that it? I imagine anyone who started with A3YZ was disappointed by the turn and river and also disgusted that you would stay in the hand with your marginal fit.

Hang in there!

Buzz

[wackjob]

[ QUOTE ]
hand is marginal to begin with and belonged in the muck with two limpers behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

you must have misread my post. as I said, there were 2 limpers and I limped in OTB. I will always limp in here in a 6-max game with weak players limping ahead of me and absolutely position with this type of hand.

[jlocdog]

Wackjob,

Why I dislike the preflop play...

1) Your hand is so uncoordinated. It will be almost impossible to vision a scenario that allows you to scoop.
2) You are not double suited. If you are going to play trash you need to atleast maximize the amount of miracle flops one might need to find themselves in a good situation.
3) Your flush draw is to the 4th nut. Hard to count on that as being a safe hand.
4) You have one low draw. Way too easy to get counterfeited with nothing to fall back on.
5) Besides for 222,333,JJJ,999,78Tr,8TQr,A45r your high hand has reverse implied odds since anything you connect with has a good chance of being dominated.
6) You do not close the betting action preflop.

Why I dislike the flop play....

1) Your low was instantly counterfeited.
2) Your flush draw seems very unsafe to rely on. Your straight may already be drawing dead.
3) SB led into a field of players on a flopped low board. Chances that he flopped the nuts of one side is not a bad assumption. Thus your scooping ability is all but gone.
4) Any draws that you may have still live are also very obvious. Guaranteeing to get paid if hit is not a definete.
5) Your hand actually may have lost value with this flop. You would have been better off chasing a live low draw over this heavily weighted reverse implied hand.

Why I dislike the turn play....

1) Your low is 100% gone. At best you can chop (or maybe 1/3rd) the low if an A hits.
2) You have lost your stright draw. So with just the 4th nut flush draw to rely on or your 4 boat outs (again not to the nuts) your hand may again have taken a step backwards.
3) The turn made it that more likely that your opponents improved. More low draws available. More straight draws available. If they don't have diamonds, they dodged one there. Pretty much, your hand weakened as theirs strengthened.
4)SB still showing interest even when bets double in size, and CO doesn't miss a beat. Again, it should seem obvious that even if you have a glimmer of hope, you are drawing at 1/2 pot at best.

Why I dislike river play....

1) You face a bet and a raise and you are most likely getting 1/4 for the low half and/or the high half. At best!
2) CO raises the river. At some point you will have to start to put your opponents on some sort of hand ranges. His new found awakening should set off some alarm bells.
3) Getting 1/2 or 1/3rd of one side of the pot loses money with only 3 players involved.
4) You do not close the betting. Getting trapped for another 1-2BB is not out of the question at all.

I think this hand was a great example of chasing good money after bad. You probably felt that atleast winning a share of the pot will make up for the mistakes made throughout the rest of the hand. Your mistakes get compounded by the fact that you had no sense of where you were at since you ignore so many warning signals (SB being a halfway decent player leading into 4 others. CO raising on the river. you having nothing at all). Seems like you may be the fish at this table. A calling cash machine for the rest*.

* Not to say that raising this hand is ever better then folding, but if you raised the flop you may have been able to get a free turn card. Again, a fold on all streets seems in order, but if you are steadfast in playing this pot, a raise may have been the cheapest way. You went about losing the maximum while trying to win the minimum.

[jcx]

In a SH game on the button I think your hand is worth a call for 1 bet. The flop is not great but you do have some draws and a total donk providing dead money. I don't mind a flop fold, but if you are going to play on I think you should raise. This might buy you all the way to the river. If the SB repops you can safely fold.

[bbartlog]

For me the hand is just below the threshold of playable in this situation. Make it 23TJ or 239K suited to the K or 239J double-suited instead of single suited and I'd limp with it, but as is I'd fold preflop.
Flop is also a fold - you have a bunch of dirty outs that might give you half the pot; I think you should be able to find a better spot.